Why Post?

[celtan]

I do believe it was glorious Marlene who said

"If you don't have anything nice
to say about anyone,
please come and sit by my side..."



Just kiddin'..!


Manolo

Originally Posted by Atlantia

" I was once told that it was said of Laking (Sir Guy Laking,
British arms historian and collector), that he would always
find something kind to say about a fellow collectors object".

May I just add...
Could any quote be more apt?
That should be the mantra of everyone using this site!



'Don't Player hate... congratulate'

[Jim McDougall]

Celtan, thank you so very much. Those kind words mean more than you can imagine my friend, and the truth is that my manner is only reflective of the gentlemanly company here.
I very much appreciate your contributions, and your genuine comittment not only to learning, but to openly sharing your knowledge here. Very well placed comments, and you have my deepest respect.

Good one on the quote !!

All the best,
Jim

[Gavin Nugent]

Great question Jim;

Well, to learn of course...that is why we are here aren't we, surely it is not just a picture gallery with no intellectual content.
Even the big dealers pop in here to brush up on info even if they do not share what they may or may not know.

I think Celtan said it best Jim ;-). You are the pillar of the community. You are here with more well versed and referenced content than all the community combined and your vigor for these subjects is an inspiration to all concerned.
No discredit to the others of course, I for one know how limited time is....and to quote Barry in some posting a while back..."if I were a rich man"........I know I'd be a lot more active too.

Gene, your comments are perfect :-), though for me, whilst the three word "very Nice ......." reply is all very nice, it would benefit the whole community if a lot more active and probing questions were asked, though some just prefer to sit on the fence and smile.
Kind of reminds me of the old adage, if your not living on the edge your just taking up space...live on the edge guys, throw your thoughts out there to see what bounces back, don't be afraid and there is no such thing as a silly question.

Stu, your comment, I quote, “Just remember that none of us are experts and we are all still learning." It is so very true.

I cannot understand why individuals would not want to comment on a piece or identify a piece based on who posts it, why the secrets. Really, who cares if it sold on next week, one should feel good about doing a little good in the world, it certainly isn't directly impacting anyone surely?? Good people please clarify for me what would be robbed lost or stolen from an individual when this happens?? I can't see the wood for the trees.
Lew made a good comment some time back with regards to asking about something that may be sold in the near future too, say something like I may be passing this on shortly, but I would like to know something about it. A nice phrase I think.

Rick I like the following comment you made; the bottom line here is that we help identify yet do not openly give appraisals.

Jim, you've done it again, everyone is off their seat for a round of applause and you certainly got the brain cells hopping, this time, not hopping about a weapon but hopping about what makes us tick.
Everyone has their own reasons and I have expressed mine and thank to all who have shared theirs too.

Lee thanks for doing what you have done with this site.

Jim, well thanks for being Jim ;-)

I love this place!

Gav

[Jeff D]

Trust Jim to ask a question that I have been pondering for a while now myself.

I know my posting has diminished substantially, as have a number of others who were regulars here, and I have been wondering why?

I have recently read a book by Dan Ariely Predictably irrational , and I think he hints at the solution. He discusses the difference between social norms and market norms. Social norms being the activities we do for free, which are part of normal social behavior. Market norms are what we do for a living or expect to earn money from. To clarify he gives the example of trying to pay your mother-in-law $400.00 for preparing the family thanks-giving dinner (in my house the consequences would be too horrible to even contemplate), and yet a "gift" (wine, flowers, etc.) is quite acceptable.

I think these forums walk a extremely fine line between the two. Normally they are dependent on the social graces of the forumites to research and post information on pieces posted, I know this takes time and energy. The gift in return is the exposure of new pieces that expand all our knowledge. Jim, Jens, RSWORD, VANDOO, Lew, et al are the foundations of these forums. Of course Lee, our host, provides the venue for free. Now Imagine if Lee was to request $1.00 for every new post or tries to make money from the forum, how long would the forumites give free answers? This would rapidly become a ghost forum. I think we all have seen essentially this happen to at least one other forum.

The same applies to forumites who post only to get information to pump up their sales pitches, they have shifted from the social norms to the market norms, and should not be surprised that nobody but Jim (always Jim ) is willing to research their piece for free.

Bad social behavior can also get you ignored (complaining that the turkey is too dry). We all love our pieces (BTW Ariely also has a section on how we naturally over estimate the value of something we own), and all comments here should be politely given, as well as politely taken both good and bad . Do not post your piece if you only want to be told it is excalaber, nobody gains anything if the difference between excalaber and a Toledo wall hanger cannot be explained. Likewise the difference should be handled politely we are not paid appraisers, we would never tell someone that the gift bottle of wine "sucks" we politely take it and use it for cooking.

Sorry I have gone on too long and now I am late for work!

All the best
Jeff

[ward]

I could not have said it better Jeff and I believe you have hit on the reasons why some of the older posters no longer particapate.

[Jim McDougall]

First of all, thank you so much Gav for the very kind words, and you are exactly right, this discussion is very much about what makes us tick.

I am glad to hear from Jeff, whom I have always deeply respected not only as a friend, but an incredibly knowledgable and discerning collector who has always entered in discussions wonderfully astute observations. His well thought out and beautifully said post here does indeed bring forward an extremely valid point. As the apparantly deeply conflicting perspectives of the commercialized and scholarly investigative factions are becoming more clearly exposed, and everyone is gratefully being quite candid, perhaps I must be as well.

I have collected and studied weapons for most of my life. Although I never had a great deal of money, I used layaway plans to full advantage. I used to joke about having 'sword payments', and the final payment and the arrival of a new treasure was the 'carrot' that kept me going through many difficult times. In order to quell the anxiety of the wait, I used to study all I could find on each new 'adventure' as I called them, and learn as much as I could.
Soon the quest for knowledge on the weapons became the driving force, and I never forgot how hard it was to find information. I did not have dealers or contacts or even other collector friends, and computers had not happened yet. I began buying books, and writing letters, even boldly to the authors who wrote the books, and astounded when they graciously wrote back.
I was amazed that these 'pillars' of the arms and armour world would take the time to write to me, what could I possibly offer in return?

Quite frankly I do what I do here because it is how I learn, just as I did in those early days, when many of the venerable giants of the arms world wrote back to me, unconditionally, and openly shared thier knowledge. I am proud to know them, and they have always been my heroes, I have felt fortunate that they cared enough to consider me worthy of thier thoughtful responses.
Those who have since passed on are often in my thoughts, and I treasure the letters they wrote pressed in the pages of thier oft cited books.

While I am certainly no giant in the arms world, not an expert in any field, nor lettered scholar or author of note, I have learned a great deal, and I am happy to share what I can here. I continue to learn with others. It is my way of returning in kind what has been given to me, and continues to be with the generous sharing of weapons and collections here. While my collecting days are over, it is wonderful to vicariously view and learn from the fantastic items that come up daily, and see artwork and museums that I would otherwise never see.
My goal has always been to advance the study of arms and armour in every way possible, and to preserve what is learned for historians, collectors, and even dealers, where perhaps the knowledge gained will level the playing ground. I can see where this would be a source of dismay for those who seek commercial gain, but as for me, though I am as far from being rich as one can imagine in money, what I have gained here, with all of you, cannot be measured in dollars or cents.
Certainly it is typically necessary to buy or sell to succeed in collecting, but as has been said, how is gaining and sharing knowledge or straightforward action compromising such activity? As for being paid for research, has anyone known of someone paid to research a weapon? Appraisals are quite different as they are legally used usually for insurance as well as sales, and the costs reflect potential liability issues.

I used to always believe that it was a kind thing to do, not to lie or mislead someone in giving them a false compliment, but to compliment them on the outstanding feature that was indeed valid. Instead of calling something 'tourist junk' , say it is a nice commercial representation of a very traditional piece, without unnecessary derision. Sometimes there is no way to avoid calling it as it is, but blunt comments are simply unkind and of little use. Perhaps noting what to watch out for in similar items might help other readers from making such mistakes.

As always, never brief but my perspective,
Jim

[Jeff D]

Thanks Jim and ward for the comments.

As always Jim you underestimate yourself. It is a good thing for us. It reminds me of a story where a famous martial artist was teaching classes for free. When his students pooled some funds together to show their admiration, he steadfastly refused to take it. Eventually he admitted that if he was to be paid for his services there is no way the students would be able to afford it, and continued to teach for free. You were taught by these 'pillars' and now return the favor to us. You clearly feel that it would be wrong to try to profit from their work and that it would be a betrayal of their trust. This is exactly the social norms the 'pillars' have come to expect and trust from you, it is why they 'gave' it to you. Everybody gains from this, the pillars , you, and us. This trust continues on, and is why we hear from the modern pillars, such as Philip, Artzi, ward, ham and the others including yourself. So much for the good.

Now the bad. There are people who profit from other's work. It may be as simple as lifting information from this site without credit to the forumite, or at minimum credit to the site where the information may have had multiple contributors. The information may be used to promote an individual, another forum, a publication, or a sword for sale etc. This doesn't cost the original researcher anything in monetary value, but it clearly breaks the social norms in which the context of the original information was given. Much like pirating a DVD costs the movie makers nothing but breaks the market norms for which it was provided. Once the trust has been broken it is very hard to mend, once burned... and all that.

The Ugly. To me this is when a thread loses any reasonable social conduct. It may be as simple as not acknowledging a post, to the more obvious trolling, baiting and rudeness too often seen in the internet world.

Now for my final word (thank goodness!). I have just reread my post and it it would appear that I am totally pissed with posting, and this forum. In reality, nothing could be farther from the truth. Like my original story, I could not afford to buy the information I have gained from this site. I have made great friends here and look forward to meeting more of you in person. The Bad and the Ugly are the exceptions to the rule here, but, I will admit that when a new name appears I tend to wait to see their pattern of behavior before I take the time to try to answer their post. This is part (not the only reason, work) why my posting has diminished. I wish I could be more like Jim, in-fact I wish we all could be!!!

All the Best
Jeff