Swords at the Little Big Horn (Part II)

[Jeff D]

How frustrating is this! I have a number of Custer books but cannot access them. Unfortunately I read them long before meeting this forum so I did not make mental notes of where the facts came from.

Tom, the contribution of Mexico to American culture is very important, but, perhaps we are getting a little ahead of ourselves. Lets see if the sword can be tracted down. For point of fact I will post a recent aquisition (not arrived yet), it is highly unlikely that its bearer was of Mexican descent. This motto as you know was used on many British swords which the confederates identified with.

All the Best.
Jeff

[George Armstrong Custer]

Gentlemen:
Firstly may I thank you all for your welcoming and interested response to an enquiry from a new member; it's much appreciated.

Andrew, many thanks for reposting my original message to this new forum location.

Tom, I have searched high and low on the net for an image of this weapon. There ought to be one available, as the sword was in the Smithsonian Institute collection. Apparently it is not now, and I cannot account for its disappearance from that august collection. However, in Lawrence A. Frost's book The Custer Album, there is a good b/w photograph of the unsheathed sword and its scabbard on p. 178. Jim McDougal's reference to the late Lawrence Frost's close examination of this blade in Son of the Morning Star is supported in its conclusions by the caption to this photo in Frost's own book, which declares it to be a German blade. Jim's quotes from the Son of the Morning Star book as to the sabre's relatively large dimensions and heft are reflected in the photo of it in Frost's book. [BTW, the late Dr Lawrence A. Frost was a podiatrist who happened to grow up in Custer's boyhood hometown of Monroe [note: although the Custers moved to Monroe, the future General was born at New Rumley, Ohio]. He became one of the most respected chroniclers of Custer's life and times, with several relevant publications to his name. Frost was also the longtime curator of the Custer room of the Monroe County, Michigan, museum. He lived across the street from members of the Custer family at one point, and before they left town prior to WWII their going away present to Frost was a pair of Custer's cavalry boots. Over the years Frost acquired many more Custer artefacts and manuscripts; after his death, many of these appeared in the Butterfield auction of 1996 referred to earlier.

Jeff, I have been meaning to place an order for the Thillmann volume with our local bookstore for some time now - it has had very good reviews. It correctly describes the Roby sabre from the Butterfield & Butterfield sale of April 4, 1995. I have a copy of the catalogue, as I bid (miserably unsuccessfully!) on the Custer sabre. It contains a good sized color photo of the unsheathed sabre and scabbard. The catalogue description is as follows:

Lot #6: General George A. Custer's Model 1860 Cavalry Saber. Having a 35 inch curved blade, ricasso marked U.S. 1864 A.G.M. The reverse C. Roby W. Chelmsford Mass. Length overall 43 1/4 inches. Condition: Guard and blade show minor wear, some flaking to leather grip, wire wrap loose. Metal scabbard with dark patina overall. See illustration.' Provenance: Acevedo Collection; Charles A. Custer Family Collection. Estimate $30,000/40,000.

It was later some little consolation to me to acquire a duplicate of Custer's Roby sabre, also dated 1864, inspector marked A.G.M. (for Alfred G. Manning), and in better condition than Custer's at auction in London, UK (although, of course, it will never have the aura of having once been wielded by the 'Boy General').

Although I couldn't find an image on the web of the captured confederate sabre from Custer's collection, here is an image of the presentation sword given to Custer at the end of the Civil War by officers of his staff. Specially commissioned and inscribed, it was manufactured by the prestigious company of Tiffany of New York.




I'd be interested to hear of any more information anyone may have relating to swords owned by Custer - and in particular any references to his M1860 Roby.

Ciao,
GAC

[Jim McDougall]

I checked p.178 of "The Custer Album" by Frost and viewed the photo of the Confederate sabre discussed, and this is most definitely one of the colonial Mexico blades. I reviewed text and illustrations concerning these blades in "Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America :1700-1821" (S. Brinckerhoff & Pierce Chamberlain, Stackpole, 1972) and on p.73 it notes,"...the wide, double edged ,hexagonal blade with three fullers is probably the most common blade found throughout the Spanish colonies".
I have a Spanish colonial sabre with three bar hilt and one of these exact blades with three fullers, and the "Spanish motto". It is mounted exactly as shown in Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain p.88 (pl.163) which is captioned as "a Mexican dragoon sabre c.1820". The blade on my sword is 34 1/2" blade.
The blade in the book's example is hexagonal but lacks the three fullers as well as the 'motto' instead marked with Carlos III (Charles III).

In examining illustrations and examples of these swords, it seems those with triple fullers carry the 'motto' and hexagonal cross section, while those that are associated with regulation Spanish swords are hexagonal but do not have the motto. In Brinkerhoff & Chamberlain (op.cit. p.15) it is noted that c.1761 King Charles sent officers to Prussia to study tactics, formations and equipment.

Another example of similar hilt probably earlier, c.1800 is mounted with a hexagonal blade with central panel fullered in same dimensions as the triple fullers, with 'Toledo*Sagaum' inscribed. This is clearly a German product with misspelled Sahagum and familiar flourishes, seeming to be an earlier blade of c.1770's. I think that it seems quite plausible that during the contact with Germany in the 1760's that King Charles may have aligned a degree of production of German made blades in the favored hexagonal section already standard with the Spanish military swords. The central fullering is quite characteristic of German trade broadsword blades, in fact the most prominant supplier of 'kaskara' blades with similar fullering in the 19th c. was Solingen.

I have long suspected that these blades in Spanish colonial swords may well have been German, and the Custer example seems compelling evidence with the markings noted by Frost. Thus far I have not seen evidential German markings, only the 'motto' and the atypical fullers on hexagonal blades.

Concerning the magnificent Scottish baskethilt Jeff has posted, the large block letters with the motto intersected by dots or circles seems to be also characteristic of German made blades. The Scots very much favored German blades, in fact it is likely most blades on the baskethilts were of German manufacture. They were also very enamoured with Spain's reputation for fine swords, and Germany in clever marketing ploy created blades using names from Spains famed makers from early times. A baskethilt of c.1680 carries an earlier German blade with misspelled 'Sebastian' and the typical flourishes seen on German blades, while the makers stamp is Wirsberg mid 17th c.
Sebastian almost certainly refers to Spanish maker Sebastian (H) or (F) ernandez c.1650, but more research needed on that. The point is that Germans were using Spanish markings etc. on blades from 17th c. onward, probably even earlier.

I am familiar with fact that there were British supply lines to the Confederacy via various Caribbean ports, and would speculate that it would seem feasible that Confederate blockade runners may have also entered the Spanish colonial sphere via Cuba. Here it would seem quite possible that blades may have been obtained such as the one on the Confederate officers sabre.
There remains of course the possibility that the blade may have been a heirloom captured during the Mexican-American War 1846.

I do hope that this sword might be eventually found among the Smithsonian labyrinth as it is in my opinion one of Custers more important swords. The others seem as described rather casually collected, however the Roby sabre is no doubt an outstanding example by an important maker.

Best regards,
Jim

[Jeff D]

Once again I am blown away by Jim's knowledge. It is interesting that WBranner has just posted a blade similar to what you describe as the Custer captured blade. http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...threadid=51073 I have one of Frost's publications, but I don't think it is the "Custer Album" I guess I will have to wait until they come out of storage, to see the picture of it.


My basket hilt has a number of interesting features and I will post it on a separate thread when it arrives.

Thanks again All
Jeff

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by George Armstrong Custer

Andrew, many thanks for reposting my original message to this new forum location.

It was my pleasure, George. Welcome to the forum.

Incidentally, any relation?

[tom hyle]

A lot of the welds are pretty obvious on that basket; youse may enjoy checking them out. While we're discussing mis-spellings, any commentary on "Salingen"? "Me Fecit Salingen" is on a sword I have (four times at that); I recently saw a seller say that a similar mark on his sword was from expat(etc.) German smiths working in England in the 17th?

[Jeff D]

Hi Jim, I am not clear on what the hilt of the captured sword is like? Is it a three bar or a boatshell?

Hi Tom, I will post better pictures when the basket hilt arrives, I think it should stimulate some discussion.

Jeff

[George Armstrong Custer]

Jim,
Many thanks for your informative post - your rapid accessing of a copy of Frost's The Custer Album is impressive! What do you think of the proposition that if Frost was correct in his reading of 'Solingen' on the blade of the captured sword, then this might still leave it a Spanish colonial blade, but which had had the 'Solingen' added to give it that added cache or kudos of a German blade? I am thinking of something along the lines of the many Scottish claidheamh mor with inferior local blades that are nonetheless marked 'Andrea Farara'.

Another possibility occurs to me. In Connell's Son of the Morning Star , Frost's inspection of the captured sabre is described as discovering 'close to the hilt...a few nearly obliterated letters which he read as Solingen....' What if they are so nearly 'obliterated' that Frost simply misread them? Might they not perhaps be 'Sagaum' or 'Sagahum'? This possibility would certainly tie in with the double edged three fullered blade style.

Jeff - the hilt on the Confederate sabre as shown in the Frost book is a three bar.

On a different tack, I posted regarding Custer's Roby on the Little Bighorn Associates Forum. A response carried the intriguing story below:

QUOTE:
Your question is an interesting one. I'll add a little more mystery to Custer and his sabres. I have a copy of a newspaper in Mitchell, SD, dated December 13, 1932, and another undated, at about the same date. There was a court fight over Custer's "sword," which had been found sticking out of the ground. It had been found by a man 25 years earlier when a boy. It stayed in the family until loaned for a school play, got lost, and ended up being sold by an antique dealer, who had in the meantime verified via letter by the swordmaker company (still in business in germany), that the sabre was made in Germany for General Custer (old records verifying that). The antique dealer had the letter, but lost the court fight (the newspaper story), and the sabre was returned to the Kimball, SD resident. It is still in the possession of the family, and I have held it in my hands, and have pictures of it. It looks just like the 1860 cavalry sabre you mention, but has the name of the maker engraved as "C.A. Westmann Dresden," along with "Eisenhauer Garantir I" and "W.K & C."
If you would like, I can download a picture of the sabre and send it via email (don't see how I can do it here). my email address is jjeffersonbroome@comcast.net.
If this really was a sabre of Custer's it would have been lost in the Yellowstone Expedition of 1873, and lost on the prairie until found about 1907. The newspaper article says the person who found it (I know his name but the family requests anonymity) was riding on the prairie near Kimball when he noticed a chain protruding from the ground. Pulling it up, he found the sabre attached. Interesting mystery, eh?
UNQUOTE

Now, my feeling about this story is that there must certainly have been a sabre discovered to prompt the newspaper story. That this weapon was Custers personal weapon with a provenance to that effect from the German makers can, I think, be dismissed as hyperbole. I would suggest that the sabre in question was more likely to have been lost somewhere in SD by an Indian who had acquired it as a battle trophy. The fact that it was found driven into the ground and connected to a chain suggests that it may have ended up being used to tether an animal. As a German bladed weapon, it would most likely have been imported to the States before or during the Civil War - and certainly before the US manufactured M1872 sabres which Custer's cavalry would have carried into the region were issued. Perhaps it was taken by Indians from a fight such as the 'Fetterman massacre' in the 1860's. In any event, I'm sure you'll all agree that the story of this find is a fascinating one.

Ciao,
GAC

[Jeff D]

Hi GAC,
If it was marked WK&C, it is Weyersburg, Kirschbaum, & Cie. 1883-1930 . Therefore Custer would have had to bought it after the little bighorn.
Could it have been W&C which is Wester & Co. 1820-1890, who were known to import M1840's for the civil war.

The sword you describe sounds like it was bought from a retailer in Dresden, so most likely is an officer's saber. Try to get the photos and post them this could be very interesting!

Jeff