Why Post?

Jim McDougall · 25th June 2009, 04:47 PM

Excellent responses here guys! As always I thank you all for the kindnesses toward my efforts, and recognizing the very deep passion I do have for the study of arms. It has been a lifelong passion that long exceeded my once concurrent passion for collecting. I only gave up the collecting in response to profound life events changing the means required to continue the hobby, not my interest in it. As I mentioned, it is wonderful that all of you so openly share your latest conquests and items in your collections, and I am able to vicariously enjoy them as well as continuing my research, which in kind, I enjoy sharing here.

It is wonderful to see the beautifully crafted responses that you have posted here Vandoo, Fearn, Khanjar and Fearn (I know your real names, but use pen names for the benefit of the readers), and these are well thought out and worded, distinctly reflecting your own styles of writing and your distinct personalities.

Your comments are all well placed, and have genuinely brought to my attention perspective I honestly had not thought of, and very much liked Atlantia's analogy of cornerstones and mortar! I agree that there are many variations to degree of response afforded to various posts, and often in proportion to each individuals familiarity or interest in a piece shared. That is well understood, and I admit that myself I often defer comment on the many topics I have limited resources or knowledge on, a broad range indeed, but honestly try to find something to say by searching as much as I can that I might try to say something.
As noted, I find it very sad to see a post standing with 0 responses.

What always impresses me is that there is indeed a great deal of solidarity here, and it is always a pleasure to see such gentlemanly behaviour even in the presence of obvious disagreement. I do admire the fact that everyone does come in with even kind comments that are 'brief' but complimentary when a new acquisition is posted.

What I am saying is addressed to the many readers out there who are clearly present in considerable numbers and that thier input is welcomed.Despite the amount and depth of knowledge being imparted in these threads, it does not diminish the inclusion of the same kind of pleasant comment noted or well placed questions by newcomers or readers. We know you are out there, and we want to know what you think or what questions you might have.

As I have always emphasized, it is how we all learn..together! We share thoughts , ideas, questions, and observations without reservation.

I would again emphasize my deep gratitude to everyone here who does participate, and in whatever degree, and always admire the contributions in text from which I honestly believe we have all learned a great deal. With reference to the excellent analogy of cornerstones, and mortar....not forgetting the solidarity of the stones, I believe we all stand together as a sort of venerable bastion for the advancement of the study of historic arms and armour.

Thank you again everyone!

All very best regards,
Jim

ward · 25th June 2009, 06:19 PM

I will say that I check who the post is from before I reply. I got a little tired of being asked about a piece and then seeing it put up for sale.

Norman McCormick · 25th June 2009, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ward

I will say that I check who the post is from before I reply. I got a little tired of being asked about a piece and then seeing it put up for sale.

Hi,
Milking hard earned knowledge under false pretences for commercial gain is certainly not in the 'spirit' of the Forum to my mind. Members obviously do swap or sell on items now and then but that's all part of collecting. This is probably an emotive subject that should be addressed somewhere but possibly not under this heading.
Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 25th June 2009, 07:14 PM

" I was once told that it was said of Laking (Sir Guy Laking,
British arms historian and collector), that he would always
find something kind to say about a fellow collectors object".

"Arms and Armour Study in Edwardian Britain"
Sid Blair and Michael Lacy, 1999

Excellent points Norman, and this is definitely a point of contention commonly faced here, as the weapons acquired and in private collections are typically the basis for our discussions. As I have noted, the gentlemanly demeanor here is certainly in most cases of highest caliber with regard to comments placed on another members weapons. In most cases where a piece is clearly a 'commercial' (trade or souk type souvenier) it is often hard to comment without the hard truth. In these instances I think the members here typically handle the matter deftly and with courtesy.
I think that we have all learned through the years through the academy of hard knocks, and most of it bear the scars of proof....in a sense I suppose we might consider this a kind of collectors 'patination' .
I believe strongly that the most important weapon an arms collector can possess is knowledge, and to never become complacent, never stop learning. This is the very reason why we are here, and why we all do what we do.

I was once told in my job, in which quick judgement calls were the 'order of the day', to make the call as best as you could with details at hand...if you were right ,it would strengthen your proficiency; if you were wrong, a lesson would be learned, and you would become even stronger. Naturally, in degree these 'calls' would vary with circumstances, but in most these ideas would apply.
A collector is by nature often impulsive, and sometimes an opportunity may be lost if action is not taken, but the more well versed they are in knowing the items they are considering, the less chance of the dreaded sting of error.

I would consider that those selling or trading arms that seek correct and accurate information to properly represent and describe those they intend to sell as prudent individuals. There is a profound difference in the laughable descriptions often with items for sale which are designed to deceive, and the typically more conservative captions which reflect true lack of knowledge.
I would only ask that those dealing with weapons that are for sale simply be straightforward, and channel queries accordingly.

All best regards,
Jim

Norman McCormick · 25th June 2009, 07:28 PM

Quote, " I would only ask those dealing with weapons that are for sale simply be straightforward and channel queries accordingly." End Quote.

Hi Jim,
The straightforward solutions are often the best.
My Regards,
Norman.

Atlantia · 26th June 2009, 01:37 AM

I've got to say that I don't mind people wanting to correctly ID items in preparation for selling.

Gentlemen, please don't feel like people are just using you (us) for free appraisals!
I think thats an important part of collecting and we none of us keep everything we buy. I believe that there are many reasons why someone might only choose whether they sell or not after they get the correct information about an item.
If this is a 'community of collectors' then clearly members will see possible 'bargains' or ones that they know will appeal to others, and want to acquire them 'on spec' in order to trade with other members for items that suit them better or sell to them to fund more suitable purchases for their own collections.
Why deny your friends on here information simply because it might help them achieve a good price for their items?
IMHO that doesn't exactly fit with the 'spirit' of a collecting group.
While the selling area is available, then it should be fine to ask for a clear ID in preparation for listing items there or anywhere else.

And, I humbly submit that there should be no stipulation on why such information is requested, if for no better reason that the receipt of such information may alter the owners decision to keep or sell!

From my own experience I often ask for help to ID an item BEFORE I decide if I'm going to keep it!
Examples?
Ashanti gold dust pot

: Went straight on ebay!
Albacete Dagger

: Now a prized exhibit in my collection when I'd thought I might have made a mistake in buying it before my friends here ID'd it for me!

For my own part I look back at 30+ years of collecting and know that I have traded and sold more beautiful pieces than I care to remember

A wheel lock pistol that I'll never see the like of again, a wootz Tulwar before I knew what wootz even was

literally hundreds of items. Some I needed to sell for financial reasons some I traded to keep one collection or another alive.
One thing I do know is that I could easily (with my first child on its way) find myself needing to sell everything from my many collections again! BUT, I will not mourn because there are always more beautiful things to own, and as with any antiques, we don't own them forever, we hold them briefly for future generations.

Now I do realise that I might be losing friends here, I sincerely hope that will not include those above who'se opinions I seem to be at odds with, as I do regard you as friends and respect your opinions and knowledge greatly.

Regards
Gene

Atlantia · 26th June 2009, 01:42 AM

" I was once told that it was said of Laking (Sir Guy Laking,
British arms historian and collector), that he would always
find something kind to say about a fellow collectors object".

May I just add...
Could any quote be more apt?
That should be the mantra of everyone using this site!

'Don't Player hate... congratulate'

Rick · 26th June 2009, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Gentlemen, please don't feel like people are just using you (us) for free appraisals!

The bottom line here is that we help identify yet do not openly give appraisals .

I would suggest that a reasonable time pass before a forum identified piece would be listed in Swap .

It just seems more right .

Not policy; just my opinion .

kahnjar1 · 26th June 2009, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ward

I will say that I check who the post is from before I reply. I got a little tired of being asked about a piece and then seeing it put up for sale.

Yes I do agree, but that is the nature of the beast. There are obviously some more than others who do this, but (and I hasten to add that I have not done this................YET) if I were to list an item for sale about which I knew absolutely nothing, I might also be tempted to obtain some information first.
Just remember that none of us are experts and we are all still learning.
Unfortunately if there was a rule for everything, it would make posting on the Forum very difficult, both for the "Postees" and also the site Moderators!
There is a thing called the K.I.S.S principle, which means keep it simple stupid.
Lets not get over regulated!
Regards Stu

25th June 2009, 04:47 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,200	Excellent responses here guys! As always I thank you all for the kindnesses toward my efforts, and recognizing the very deep passion I do have for the study of arms. It has been a lifelong passion that long exceeded my once concurrent passion for collecting. I only gave up the collecting in response to profound life events changing the means required to continue the hobby, not my interest in it. As I mentioned, it is wonderful that all of you so openly share your latest conquests and items in your collections, and I am able to vicariously enjoy them as well as continuing my research, which in kind, I enjoy sharing here. It is wonderful to see the beautifully crafted responses that you have posted here Vandoo, Fearn, Khanjar and Fearn (I know your real names, but use pen names for the benefit of the readers), and these are well thought out and worded, distinctly reflecting your own styles of writing and your distinct personalities. Your comments are all well placed, and have genuinely brought to my attention perspective I honestly had not thought of, and very much liked Atlantia's analogy of cornerstones and mortar! I agree that there are many variations to degree of response afforded to various posts, and often in proportion to each individuals familiarity or interest in a piece shared. That is well understood, and I admit that myself I often defer comment on the many topics I have limited resources or knowledge on, a broad range indeed, but honestly try to find something to say by searching as much as I can that I might try to say something. As noted, I find it very sad to see a post standing with 0 responses. What always impresses me is that there is indeed a great deal of solidarity here, and it is always a pleasure to see such gentlemanly behaviour even in the presence of obvious disagreement. I do admire the fact that everyone does come in with even kind comments that are 'brief' but complimentary when a new acquisition is posted. What I am saying is addressed to the many readers out there who are clearly present in considerable numbers and that thier input is welcomed.Despite the amount and depth of knowledge being imparted in these threads, it does not diminish the inclusion of the same kind of pleasant comment noted or well placed questions by newcomers or readers. We know you are out there, and we want to know what you think or what questions you might have. As I have always emphasized, it is how we all learn..together! We share thoughts , ideas, questions, and observations without reservation. I would again emphasize my deep gratitude to everyone here who does participate, and in whatever degree, and always admire the contributions in text from which I honestly believe we have all learned a great deal. With reference to the excellent analogy of cornerstones, and mortar....not forgetting the solidarity of the stones, I believe we all stand together as a sort of venerable bastion for the advancement of the study of historic arms and armour. Thank you again everyone! All very best regards, Jim

25th June 2009, 06:19 PM	#2
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	I will say that I check who the post is from before I reply. I got a little tired of being asked about a piece and then seeing it put up for sale.

25th June 2009, 07:14 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,200	" I was once told that it was said of Laking (Sir Guy Laking, British arms historian and collector), that he would always find something kind to say about a fellow collectors object". "Arms and Armour Study in Edwardian Britain" Sid Blair and Michael Lacy, 1999 Excellent points Norman, and this is definitely a point of contention commonly faced here, as the weapons acquired and in private collections are typically the basis for our discussions. As I have noted, the gentlemanly demeanor here is certainly in most cases of highest caliber with regard to comments placed on another members weapons. In most cases where a piece is clearly a 'commercial' (trade or souk type souvenier) it is often hard to comment without the hard truth. In these instances I think the members here typically handle the matter deftly and with courtesy. I think that we have all learned through the years through the academy of hard knocks, and most of it bear the scars of proof....in a sense I suppose we might consider this a kind of collectors 'patination' . I believe strongly that the most important weapon an arms collector can possess is knowledge, and to never become complacent, never stop learning. This is the very reason why we are here, and why we all do what we do. I was once told in my job, in which quick judgement calls were the 'order of the day', to make the call as best as you could with details at hand...if you were right ,it would strengthen your proficiency; if you were wrong, a lesson would be learned, and you would become even stronger. Naturally, in degree these 'calls' would vary with circumstances, but in most these ideas would apply. A collector is by nature often impulsive, and sometimes an opportunity may be lost if action is not taken, but the more well versed they are in knowing the items they are considering, the less chance of the dreaded sting of error. I would consider that those selling or trading arms that seek correct and accurate information to properly represent and describe those they intend to sell as prudent individuals. There is a profound difference in the laughable descriptions often with items for sale which are designed to deceive, and the typically more conservative captions which reflect true lack of knowledge. I would only ask that those dealing with weapons that are for sale simply be straightforward, and channel queries accordingly. All best regards, Jim

25th June 2009, 07:28 PM	#5
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Quote, " I would only ask those dealing with weapons that are for sale simply be straightforward and channel queries accordingly." End Quote. Hi Jim, The straightforward solutions are often the best. My Regards, Norman.

26th June 2009, 01:37 AM	#6
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	I've got to say that I don't mind people wanting to correctly ID items in preparation for selling. Gentlemen, please don't feel like people are just using you (us) for free appraisals! I think thats an important part of collecting and we none of us keep everything we buy. I believe that there are many reasons why someone might only choose whether they sell or not after they get the correct information about an item. If this is a 'community of collectors' then clearly members will see possible 'bargains' or ones that they know will appeal to others, and want to acquire them 'on spec' in order to trade with other members for items that suit them better or sell to them to fund more suitable purchases for their own collections. Why deny your friends on here information simply because it might help them achieve a good price for their items? IMHO that doesn't exactly fit with the 'spirit' of a collecting group. While the selling area is available, then it should be fine to ask for a clear ID in preparation for listing items there or anywhere else. And, I humbly submit that there should be no stipulation on why such information is requested, if for no better reason that the receipt of such information may alter the owners decision to keep or sell! From my own experience I often ask for help to ID an item BEFORE I decide if I'm going to keep it! Examples? Ashanti gold dust pot : Went straight on ebay! Albacete Dagger : Now a prized exhibit in my collection when I'd thought I might have made a mistake in buying it before my friends here ID'd it for me! For my own part I look back at 30+ years of collecting and know that I have traded and sold more beautiful pieces than I care to remember A wheel lock pistol that I'll never see the like of again, a wootz Tulwar before I knew what wootz even was literally hundreds of items. Some I needed to sell for financial reasons some I traded to keep one collection or another alive. One thing I do know is that I could easily (with my first child on its way) find myself needing to sell everything from my many collections again! BUT, I will not mourn because there are always more beautiful things to own, and as with any antiques, we don't own them forever, we hold them briefly for future generations. Now I do realise that I might be losing friends here, I sincerely hope that will not include those above who'se opinions I seem to be at odds with, as I do regard you as friends and respect your opinions and knowledge greatly. Regards Gene

26th June 2009, 01:42 AM	#7
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	" I was once told that it was said of Laking (Sir Guy Laking, British arms historian and collector), that he would always find something kind to say about a fellow collectors object". May I just add... Could any quote be more apt? That should be the mantra of everyone using this site! 'Don't Player hate... congratulate'