Armour in the Wild West

ausjulius · 25th June 2009, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I believe the Maoris, much as the Moros, were inclined to use chain mail and indeed probably had occasion to use European weapons.

I hadnt heard of the padded breast plates for armed guards and couriers in the 19th century. Do you have more details?

Thank you again for posting and for the great observations!
All the best,
Jim

hi jim.. yes.. honestly the desire for iron among the american natives and their value of it.. i couldnt see a breastplate being discarded unless they had leaft it for some great fear or a superstitious kind..

i think the tlingit and hada and other peoples along the pacific coast did make mail from metal washers and coins. and also wooden and shell armor but i think ti was more to deflect their own weapons, darts and arrows and not realy related to protection from bullets. although from what i understand these people had common use of firearms since the 1770s as the main weapon..

as the maoris using chain mail.. i have never heard of this..
it would be interesting to see something about that.

as to the metal plates for armor guards in the 19th century .. i seem to recall seeing several thins.. but i cant remember where. i i think one might have been an addvertisment.. for a padded steel plate.. i seem to recall pinkerton or wells fargo.. or others may have used these......
i guess they were porably the same as the metal breast plates sold during the civil war..
i do recall seeing some place somebody may have made and sold chain mail shirts or some such crazy think in the u.s. in the 19th century also..

.

Jim McDougall · 25th June 2009, 05:30 PM

Hi Ausjulius,
I do believe you are right on the American Indian tribes of the Northwest fashioning armour of wood and material using metal attachments, and as you note, am not aware of intended deflection of bullets. The advent of iron came late to these regions as far as locally produced metalwork, but they did use copper in considerable degree. While they could produce copper items, I believe they obtained a great deal of copper from trade, as well as from sheathing on wrecked ships that were lost along the coast in those endeavors.

On the note on Maoris use of chain mail, I will have to check further as I do not recall exactly where that reference was or if perhaps I may have inadvertantly misincluded that along with Moros. There is of course always the possibiity of singular cases from trade or European contact, but we of course are looking for significant use.

I found the name of the American Indian chief who was apparantly called 'Iron Shirt'. He was I believe a Tonkawa (?) in 1850's Texas, Chief Pohibit Quasha, and apparantly had an old Spanish breastplate. It seems that, at least in various references it has been noted that the tribes were at least in some degree intrigued by the various implements of the White Men, and that these objects would have been kept as kind of trophies whether used or not. The interest afforded a long held old Spanish morion seen in the movie "Dances with Wolves" (which was in my perception pretty well researched) I think reflects such possibilities.

It is known that while the Indian warriors did not use swords in combat, at least not in incidence well known, and that they did acquire them as trophies. These were held in high esteem and seem to have become elements of ceremonial regalia.

It would seem that there was a great deal of invention and innovation active in the Wild West, and I enjoy watching the television documentary series "Wild West Tech" in which they review many elements of weapons and various implements used in those times. The records of the U.S. Patent office would probably reveal quite a few pretty humorous 'inventions' proposed in these times, though many were remarkably sensible, even though obviously quite anachronistic. I would guess by then the patent on chain mail from the Middle Ages would have expired

All best regards,
Jim

.[/QUOTE]

VANDOO · 25th June 2009, 07:05 PM

SOME OF THE TRIBES (ESKIMOS) IN THE FAR NORTH USED A FORM OF BONE ARMOR BACK INTO PREHISTORY. THEY CONSISTED OF A SERIES OF BONE PLATES WITH HOLES DRILLED OR CUT THRU THEM ATTACHED TO SOME HIDE A PIECE OF WALRUS OR WHALE LEATHER WOULD SERVE VERY WELL. THIS KIND OF AMOR TYPE SERVED AS A SECOND OUTER RIBCAGE WHICH IS THE ARMOR AND SUPPORT WE ARE BORN WITH. PERHAPS A SKELETONS RIBS GAVE US THE IDEA OF THAT FORM AND NO DOUBT TURTLE,FISH AND ARMADILLO MAY HAVE HAD A INFLUENCE ON OTHER FORMS IN THE PAST.
SOME TRIBES WERE SAID TO HAVE USED THE ARMOR OF THE GARFISH FOR BODY ARMOR, ARROW POINTS AND ARROW QUIVERS. I DON'T REMEMBER WHICH TRIBES BUT THE LARGEST GAR LIVE IN THE SOUTHERN UNINTED STATES. ITS NOT UNUSUAL FOR A ALLIGATOR GAR TO REACH TEN FEET LONG AND WEIGH 350 POUNDS. I READ SOMEWHERE THEY WERE STUDYING FISH ARMORS TO IMPROVE SOME OF TODAYS BODY ARMOR.

THE USE OF THE GORGET GOES BACK TO PREHISTORY IN THE AMERICAS AND IS FOUND OVER A VERY WIDE AREA. SHELL AND COPPER GORGETS WERE FOUND IN SPIRO MOUNDS IN OKLAHONA WHICH DATES TO AROUND 1200 AND OLDER EXAMPLES ARE KNOWN. ANOTHER INTERESTING TOPIC THANKS JIM AND ALL

PICTURE OF AINCENT ESKIMO BONE ARMOR PLATE.

Jim McDougall · 25th June 2009, 08:02 PM

Great information Barry! The idea of armor in many ways approximating anatomy is seen also in cases of many African shields, where the elements of the shield were often called by terms associated to anatomy, such as spine, ribs. Interesting also in the use of animal components as elements for various types of weapons and armor. As noted earlier, the gorget has stood as a fascinating vestigial element of armor well known in military regalia for some time. It is interesting that these have always been presumed to have entered the Indian cultures post contact, but it seems possible that they were in effect around long before that..perhaps with other symbolism?

Ausjulius, it would seem that I must have misapplied the comment on Maori use of chain mail, and probably interpolated with the established Moro use. I did do some checking though, and did find one interesting instance in which armour did at least some degree of use, if only as a novelty. In "Museum, Anthropology and Imperial Exchange" (Amiria J.M.Henare, p.105) two Maori chiefs voyaged with the schoolmaster Thomas Kendall to London in 1820.
They were introduced to King George IV, who presented them with gifts including a suit of armour to Chief Hongi Hika, who upon his return to New Zealand, wore this in attacks on his old enemies.
It is noted that Thomsen ("Story of New Zealand" Vol.I , 1859, p.256) observed that this suit of armour had been pieced out to various individuals by 1859, and in 1849 the breastplate alone had been in the possession of a chief near source of Waipa river and in 1853, the other chief from the voyage had buried the helmet with his dead son.

Other references noted that since fighting among Maori tribes involved mostly hand to hand combat with clubs and similar weapons that armour was not worn, and warriors donned only the grass skirts. Therefore, no real evidence of chain mail, but the instance of the gift armour was of interest.

All best regards,
Jim

aiontay · 26th June 2009, 02:00 AM

I just got back from a business conference in Houston, so a few disjointed comments; hopefully I write some more comments later. First, superstition is in the eye of the beholder, so I treat explanations that rely on "ceremonial" causes with a bit of caution. Maybe they left the steel breastplates because they were in a hurry and they were too heavy (there's a story about Kiowas leaving a huge gov't. shipment of gold coins and taking a huge load of sugar after a successful raid because they liked sugar, but couldn't figure out a use for the gold), or may be they didn't have chisels or files at the time to cut up the metal. As for swords, they were used extensively in combat; there is plenty of ledger art as well as written sources that attest to this. I just recently ran across a Spanish account from the 18th century that notes the Pawnee were well armed with guns and swords. I don't recall the Tonkawas having an iron shirt but there were several "Iron Shirts" out on the Plains in various tribes. One of the first Cheyenne casualties in the fight where they lost their Medicine Arrows to the Pawnees was a Cheyenne with an mail shirt; he was shot through the eye.

As for gorgets, I'll have to remember to ask about the symbolism, at least in the Southeastern system. That should be pretty easy to do. As Vandoo notes gorgets have been around a while. I've never heard of gar fish being used as armor. The scales were definitely used as arrow heads and the teeth are still used by one of my friends and others for scratching during Green Corn ceremonials, but the smaller gar teeth, not alligator gar since their teeth are too dull.

Jim McDougall · 26th June 2009, 02:16 PM

Aiontay, its good to see you back, and thanks as always for the great input.
Interesting notes on the Indian use of swords, and I very much look forward to hearing more on these instances. The comments I noted were mostly based on swords from the mid to latter 19th century, and some instances where these were held only in what appeared ceremonial use. The use of sabres seems to have fallen out of use by the cavalry as well, at least by the time of the Little Big Horn, despite there being some singular and vague reference to same there.

Thanks Ausjulius for the additional notes on the Maori. I was just realizing how little is typically discussed on the weaponry of these warriors, and perhaps this might be a great topic for an independant thread.

All best regards,
Jim

aiontay · 27th June 2009, 01:33 AM

Yes, by the mid 19th Century swords were probably not as widely used; a pistol would be better. Nevertheless, the ledger art indicates they were used all the way to the end of the fighting on the Plains.

I did consult with two friends (one Choctaw and one Seminole) regarding gorgets. The original shell ones indicated clan/religious-political office. Of course, since in the SE religious/political status depended in part on clan affiliation, the gorgets frequently indicated both things simultaneously. The Choctaw tradition says the first metal gorgets were gifts from the Spanish, which would indicate an introduction by the mid 1600s at the latest. Apparently the Chickasaws had a series of bars engraved on the gorgets that indicated status.

ausjulius · 26th June 2009, 02:05 AM

yup it was the suit i was thginking about,
yes normaly maori combat was involving any armor or large amounts of projectile weapons, no doubt they new of them but didnt use them..
they did have very long lances.. 20 or 30 feet and other weapons like darts and javalins and such but i think these were not frequently used as they were considered cowardly.
there is a lot of accounts of maori standing in the open unprotected and reciving cannon shot while waiting for their oponants to close for hand to hand combat..
i guess this changes after guns became more common as they basicaly reversed their fighting from ritual to desperate trench style warfare with their pa's

25th June 2009, 07:05 PM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	SOME OF THE TRIBES (ESKIMOS) IN THE FAR NORTH USED A FORM OF BONE ARMOR BACK INTO PREHISTORY. THEY CONSISTED OF A SERIES OF BONE PLATES WITH HOLES DRILLED OR CUT THRU THEM ATTACHED TO SOME HIDE A PIECE OF WALRUS OR WHALE LEATHER WOULD SERVE VERY WELL. THIS KIND OF AMOR TYPE SERVED AS A SECOND OUTER RIBCAGE WHICH IS THE ARMOR AND SUPPORT WE ARE BORN WITH. PERHAPS A SKELETONS RIBS GAVE US THE IDEA OF THAT FORM AND NO DOUBT TURTLE,FISH AND ARMADILLO MAY HAVE HAD A INFLUENCE ON OTHER FORMS IN THE PAST. SOME TRIBES WERE SAID TO HAVE USED THE ARMOR OF THE GARFISH FOR BODY ARMOR, ARROW POINTS AND ARROW QUIVERS. I DON'T REMEMBER WHICH TRIBES BUT THE LARGEST GAR LIVE IN THE SOUTHERN UNINTED STATES. ITS NOT UNUSUAL FOR A ALLIGATOR GAR TO REACH TEN FEET LONG AND WEIGH 350 POUNDS. I READ SOMEWHERE THEY WERE STUDYING FISH ARMORS TO IMPROVE SOME OF TODAYS BODY ARMOR. THE USE OF THE GORGET GOES BACK TO PREHISTORY IN THE AMERICAS AND IS FOUND OVER A VERY WIDE AREA. SHELL AND COPPER GORGETS WERE FOUND IN SPIRO MOUNDS IN OKLAHONA WHICH DATES TO AROUND 1200 AND OLDER EXAMPLES ARE KNOWN. ANOTHER INTERESTING TOPIC THANKS JIM AND ALL PICTURE OF AINCENT ESKIMO BONE ARMOR PLATE. Attached Images

25th June 2009, 05:30 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Ausjulius, I do believe you are right on the American Indian tribes of the Northwest fashioning armour of wood and material using metal attachments, and as you note, am not aware of intended deflection of bullets. The advent of iron came late to these regions as far as locally produced metalwork, but they did use copper in considerable degree. While they could produce copper items, I believe they obtained a great deal of copper from trade, as well as from sheathing on wrecked ships that were lost along the coast in those endeavors. On the note on Maoris use of chain mail, I will have to check further as I do not recall exactly where that reference was or if perhaps I may have inadvertantly misincluded that along with Moros. There is of course always the possibiity of singular cases from trade or European contact, but we of course are looking for significant use. I found the name of the American Indian chief who was apparantly called 'Iron Shirt'. He was I believe a Tonkawa (?) in 1850's Texas, Chief Pohibit Quasha, and apparantly had an old Spanish breastplate. It seems that, at least in various references it has been noted that the tribes were at least in some degree intrigued by the various implements of the White Men, and that these objects would have been kept as kind of trophies whether used or not. The interest afforded a long held old Spanish morion seen in the movie "Dances with Wolves" (which was in my perception pretty well researched) I think reflects such possibilities. It is known that while the Indian warriors did not use swords in combat, at least not in incidence well known, and that they did acquire them as trophies. These were held in high esteem and seem to have become elements of ceremonial regalia. It would seem that there was a great deal of invention and innovation active in the Wild West, and I enjoy watching the television documentary series "Wild West Tech" in which they review many elements of weapons and various implements used in those times. The records of the U.S. Patent office would probably reveal quite a few pretty humorous 'inventions' proposed in these times, though many were remarkably sensible, even though obviously quite anachronistic. I would guess by then the patent on chain mail from the Middle Ages would have expired All best regards, Jim .[/QUOTE]

25th June 2009, 08:02 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Great information Barry! The idea of armor in many ways approximating anatomy is seen also in cases of many African shields, where the elements of the shield were often called by terms associated to anatomy, such as spine, ribs. Interesting also in the use of animal components as elements for various types of weapons and armor. As noted earlier, the gorget has stood as a fascinating vestigial element of armor well known in military regalia for some time. It is interesting that these have always been presumed to have entered the Indian cultures post contact, but it seems possible that they were in effect around long before that..perhaps with other symbolism? Ausjulius, it would seem that I must have misapplied the comment on Maori use of chain mail, and probably interpolated with the established Moro use. I did do some checking though, and did find one interesting instance in which armour did at least some degree of use, if only as a novelty. In "Museum, Anthropology and Imperial Exchange" (Amiria J.M.Henare, p.105) two Maori chiefs voyaged with the schoolmaster Thomas Kendall to London in 1820. They were introduced to King George IV, who presented them with gifts including a suit of armour to Chief Hongi Hika, who upon his return to New Zealand, wore this in attacks on his old enemies. It is noted that Thomsen ("Story of New Zealand" Vol.I , 1859, p.256) observed that this suit of armour had been pieced out to various individuals by 1859, and in 1849 the breastplate alone had been in the possession of a chief near source of Waipa river and in 1853, the other chief from the voyage had buried the helmet with his dead son. Other references noted that since fighting among Maori tribes involved mostly hand to hand combat with clubs and similar weapons that armour was not worn, and warriors donned only the grass skirts. Therefore, no real evidence of chain mail, but the instance of the gift armour was of interest. All best regards, Jim

26th June 2009, 02:00 AM	#5
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	I just got back from a business conference in Houston, so a few disjointed comments; hopefully I write some more comments later. First, superstition is in the eye of the beholder, so I treat explanations that rely on "ceremonial" causes with a bit of caution. Maybe they left the steel breastplates because they were in a hurry and they were too heavy (there's a story about Kiowas leaving a huge gov't. shipment of gold coins and taking a huge load of sugar after a successful raid because they liked sugar, but couldn't figure out a use for the gold), or may be they didn't have chisels or files at the time to cut up the metal. As for swords, they were used extensively in combat; there is plenty of ledger art as well as written sources that attest to this. I just recently ran across a Spanish account from the 18th century that notes the Pawnee were well armed with guns and swords. I don't recall the Tonkawas having an iron shirt but there were several "Iron Shirts" out on the Plains in various tribes. One of the first Cheyenne casualties in the fight where they lost their Medicine Arrows to the Pawnees was a Cheyenne with an mail shirt; he was shot through the eye. As for gorgets, I'll have to remember to ask about the symbolism, at least in the Southeastern system. That should be pretty easy to do. As Vandoo notes gorgets have been around a while. I've never heard of gar fish being used as armor. The scales were definitely used as arrow heads and the teeth are still used by one of my friends and others for scratching during Green Corn ceremonials, but the smaller gar teeth, not alligator gar since their teeth are too dull.

26th June 2009, 02:16 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Aiontay, its good to see you back, and thanks as always for the great input. Interesting notes on the Indian use of swords, and I very much look forward to hearing more on these instances. The comments I noted were mostly based on swords from the mid to latter 19th century, and some instances where these were held only in what appeared ceremonial use. The use of sabres seems to have fallen out of use by the cavalry as well, at least by the time of the Little Big Horn, despite there being some singular and vague reference to same there. Thanks Ausjulius for the additional notes on the Maori. I was just realizing how little is typically discussed on the weaponry of these warriors, and perhaps this might be a great topic for an independant thread. All best regards, Jim

27th June 2009, 01:33 AM	#7
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	Yes, by the mid 19th Century swords were probably not as widely used; a pistol would be better. Nevertheless, the ledger art indicates they were used all the way to the end of the fighting on the Plains. I did consult with two friends (one Choctaw and one Seminole) regarding gorgets. The original shell ones indicated clan/religious-political office. Of course, since in the SE religious/political status depended in part on clan affiliation, the gorgets frequently indicated both things simultaneously. The Choctaw tradition says the first metal gorgets were gifts from the Spanish, which would indicate an introduction by the mid 1600s at the latest. Apparently the Chickasaws had a series of bars engraved on the gorgets that indicated status.

26th June 2009, 02:05 AM	#8
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 439	yup it was the suit i was thginking about, yes normaly maori combat was involving any armor or large amounts of projectile weapons, no doubt they new of them but didnt use them.. they did have very long lances.. 20 or 30 feet and other weapons like darts and javalins and such but i think these were not frequently used as they were considered cowardly. there is a lot of accounts of maori standing in the open unprotected and reciving cannon shot while waiting for their oponants to close for hand to hand combat.. i guess this changes after guns became more common as they basicaly reversed their fighting from ritual to desperate trench style warfare with their pa's