Cirebon hilt?

nechesh · 2nd May 2005, 10:54 PM

Great thread! I think i'll just stand by and learn.

But i would like to to make a comment on Cedric's beautiful photography. Nice shots, very well presented.

tuancd · 12th May 2005, 07:05 PM

Hi!
I'm back in Europe
about the Alidha/pratyalidha standing position, it is highly discussable. You can find some posture in Balinese hilts that are close to it. It's not like the one expressed in Tibetan sculpture (for instance on wood book covers). You never know if the rakshasa or the durga (or else) are really standing up or are seated on the tumpal throne. In the attached picture the durga unveiled has this questionable position. The general fierce attitude can suggest the alidha position which expresses the angry and aggressive look of durga. It is to scare mortal and spirits away. Now, the way it is sculptured you can't really tell if she is seated or not the feet are placed a way which can suggest the standing attitude rather than a seated one. But it's not obvious and I have not seen one hilt that would make it absolutely sure.

BluErf · 15th May 2005, 01:14 PM

Thanks Tuan Cedric, but the posture of Durga unveiled seemed somewhat different from what I've seen on Buddhist rupas. Maybe the stance got modified when it came to Southeast Asia?

Image take from: http://thethankahouse.com/postures_pedistals.html

tuancd · 15th May 2005, 04:51 PM

As I said it's also because it is sculptured on a handle. If the posture couls be on a straight line then it would look like your illustration.
Any ways it's not obvious like some others detail or styles.

BluErf · 16th May 2005, 01:51 PM

Hmmm... You are probably right. Here's a couple more images I got from the net. One was from a previous post here. Aggressive posturing.

tuancd · 17th May 2005, 04:10 PM

Yes definitely. You can see that the posture looks like the Alidha/pratyalidha standing position... But if you look them from the back they look seated and I have not been able to find a seated posture that look like that. You know that all the posture have their meaning (like almost everything in the keris). I find strange that such an important part of the kriss would be sculptured always the same way without a good reason.
I've been through an interesting study about durga
http://www.asianart.com/articles/durga/
and as you'll see in the postures the right foot is almost always upper than the left. Is this the model?

12th May 2005, 07:05 PM	#2
tuancd Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Paris - Bruxelles Posts: 32	Hi! I'm back in Europe about the Alidha/pratyalidha standing position, it is highly discussable. You can find some posture in Balinese hilts that are close to it. It's not like the one expressed in Tibetan sculpture (for instance on wood book covers). You never know if the rakshasa or the durga (or else) are really standing up or are seated on the tumpal throne. In the attached picture the durga unveiled has this questionable position. The general fierce attitude can suggest the alidha position which expresses the angry and aggressive look of durga. It is to scare mortal and spirits away. Now, the way it is sculptured you can't really tell if she is seated or not the feet are placed a way which can suggest the standing attitude rather than a seated one. But it's not obvious and I have not seen one hilt that would make it absolutely sure. Attached Images

15th May 2005, 01:14 PM	#3
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Thanks Tuan Cedric, but the posture of Durga unveiled seemed somewhat different from what I've seen on Buddhist rupas. Maybe the stance got modified when it came to Southeast Asia? Image take from: http://thethankahouse.com/postures_pedistals.html Attached Images

16th May 2005, 01:51 PM	#5
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hmmm... You are probably right. Here's a couple more images I got from the net. One was from a previous post here. Aggressive posturing. Attached Images

2nd May 2005, 10:54 PM	#1
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Great thread! I think i'll just stand by and learn. But i would like to to make a comment on Cedric's beautiful photography. Nice shots, very well presented.

15th May 2005, 04:51 PM	#4
tuancd Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Paris - Bruxelles Posts: 32	As I said it's also because it is sculptured on a handle. If the posture couls be on a straight line then it would look like your illustration. Any ways it's not obvious like some others detail or styles.

17th May 2005, 04:10 PM	#6
tuancd Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Paris - Bruxelles Posts: 32	Yes definitely. You can see that the posture looks like the Alidha/pratyalidha standing position... But if you look them from the back they look seated and I have not been able to find a seated posture that look like that. You know that all the posture have their meaning (like almost everything in the keris). I find strange that such an important part of the kriss would be sculptured always the same way without a good reason. I've been through an interesting study about durga http://www.asianart.com/articles/durga/ and as you'll see in the postures the right foot is almost always upper than the left. Is this the model?