Stone club.

katana · 19th June 2009, 08:37 PM

Stupidly, I posted this comment on this thread
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=9591 when it should be on this one

Hi Tim,
the illustration of the 'stone headed' club shows that it is mounted to the side of the shaft......yours is mounted on top. So I am not so certain that we can ID yours from the drawing.

Regards David

Tim Simmons · 30th October 2009, 08:56 PM

I have received a reply from the British Museum Collection Enquiries. This I have to say was rather disappointing. To be fair the curators were only working from not the best photographs. They are also not the personnel that have daily access to the less distinctive items in the miles of boxes in the Museum store building, which is four stories high. In the very early 1980s I worked as a registrar in the African department {pre computer, pen and ink drawing of items in the collection} I could have told you it was not African. The letter is here for you all to read. It is some what sitting on the fence I feel. I am most reluctant to leave the item with them, also to expect every box of all geographic areas to be opened to match materials is a little unreasonable. So I have decided to tackle the problem another way.

Today I kept an appointment with a Dr Peter Gasson working in the Jodrell laboratory at the Royal Botanic Gardens Kew. Three samples of wood were taken from the haft of the club with the minimum of damage. There and then from the transverse sample I was shown through the microscope that although light to handle it is a hard wood. The work will be on going so I expect a final analysis in about a months time. This procedure may not answer all the questions on the club. If only a genus is identified then I could still be no further on in the hunt for an origin however I am feeling confident that we are not look at something like Oak. On the other hand it could well be an unknown species, all in the air really. I am wondering if it is some kind of palm wood. I really do hope I get somewhere? keeping my fingers crossed as this is going to cost 3/5th of what I paid for the club. What ever the result good or bad I will keep you all informed.

Bryan.H · 1st November 2009, 03:13 PM

I wouldn't be surprised if this club originated from Australia...

Here's a link showing a modern aboriginal elder making a stone hatchet.

http://earthsci.org/aboriginal/index.html#restoreaxe

The technique of binding is very similar. With regards to the 'telegraph' wire, this type of insulated wire is similar to that used in old houses over here, and the aboriginal people are famous for their ingenuity in combining new materials with ancient technological methods (i.e. flint-knapping glass of broken beer bottles to make spear heads in remote areas up to the 1960's and later).

I can't say for sure it's an 100% Australian Aboriginal artefact, but it would not look out of place in the Australian Aboriginal material culture of the early 20th century.

Atlantia · 1st November 2009, 03:58 PM

Comming in rather late here.
Looks very neolithic to me. A poor flint or /often refered to as chert (sometimes not entirely accurately).
I find the simple shaping also reminds me of neolithic tools.
Any chance its a victorian 'authentic' rehafting of a British Neolithic club?
I've seen EBA stuff remounted in the 19thC.

Tim Simmons · 1st November 2009, 08:19 PM

If it is Australian or even Australasian the the analysis should have no problem in finding the answer. It is what I have thought right from the start. The problem lies in the cell structure of a genus that is common to vast areas of the world like Oak. I bet the wood is from the southern hemisphere anyway.

fearn · 1st November 2009, 08:56 PM

Good luck, Tim.

I suspect you'll get a good answer on the wood ID if it's tropical. Even oak wood is variable enough that they can get it to at least subgenus, if not species. The only challenge is whether they have that species in their type collection or not.

On the other hand, it's good to know that we came up with the same answer as the collections managers of the British Museum (i.e. what the heck is it?). Kudos to us.

Best,

F

Tim Simmons · 30th December 2009, 02:50 PM

Email to me, 30 December 2009

Dear Mr Simmons

I have now microscopically examined the wood fragments we took from your club handle on 30 October. The closest anatomical match I can find is with the wood of Ligustrum sp., Privet. There are about 40 species in this genus, 1 in Europe, 1 in North Africa but most in East and Southeast Asia. This does seem to throw some doubt on the club being from southern South America, but depending on its age there is always the possibility that the wood was imported.

Yours sincerely

Peter Gasson

Dr Peter Gasson
Jodrell Laboratory
Royal Botanic Gardens
Kew
Richmond
Surrey
TW9 3DS

So no actual species identified but with further research on the net, species of the genus Ligustrum are found throughout Malaysia to Australia. I do not have the funds to get the results photographed and pursue this course of enquiry further worldwide. However I do feel that the results give some backing to my original opinions and findings on the object. I do not know how early non-native Privet were introduced to Australia but can say that {ref the wire on the handle} telecommunication started from the late 1850s.

30th October 2009, 08:56 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	Up Date. I have received a reply from the British Museum Collection Enquiries. This I have to say was rather disappointing. To be fair the curators were only working from not the best photographs. They are also not the personnel that have daily access to the less distinctive items in the miles of boxes in the Museum store building, which is four stories high. In the very early 1980s I worked as a registrar in the African department {pre computer, pen and ink drawing of items in the collection} I could have told you it was not African. The letter is here for you all to read. It is some what sitting on the fence I feel. I am most reluctant to leave the item with them, also to expect every box of all geographic areas to be opened to match materials is a little unreasonable. So I have decided to tackle the problem another way. Today I kept an appointment with a Dr Peter Gasson working in the Jodrell laboratory at the Royal Botanic Gardens Kew. Three samples of wood were taken from the haft of the club with the minimum of damage. There and then from the transverse sample I was shown through the microscope that although light to handle it is a hard wood. The work will be on going so I expect a final analysis in about a months time. This procedure may not answer all the questions on the club. If only a genus is identified then I could still be no further on in the hunt for an origin however I am feeling confident that we are not look at something like Oak. On the other hand it could well be an unknown species, all in the air really. I am wondering if it is some kind of palm wood. I really do hope I get somewhere? keeping my fingers crossed as this is going to cost 3/5th of what I paid for the club. What ever the result good or bad I will keep you all informed. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 30th October 2009 at 09:07 PM.

30th December 2009, 02:50 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	Kew results, good in parts. Email to me, 30 December 2009 Dear Mr Simmons I have now microscopically examined the wood fragments we took from your club handle on 30 October. The closest anatomical match I can find is with the wood of Ligustrum sp., Privet. There are about 40 species in this genus, 1 in Europe, 1 in North Africa but most in East and Southeast Asia. This does seem to throw some doubt on the club being from southern South America, but depending on its age there is always the possibility that the wood was imported. Yours sincerely Peter Gasson Dr Peter Gasson Jodrell Laboratory Royal Botanic Gardens Kew Richmond Surrey TW9 3DS So no actual species identified but with further research on the net, species of the genus Ligustrum are found throughout Malaysia to Australia. I do not have the funds to get the results photographed and pursue this course of enquiry further worldwide. However I do feel that the results give some backing to my original opinions and findings on the object. I do not know how early non-native Privet were introduced to Australia but can say that {ref the wire on the handle} telecommunication started from the late 1850s.

19th June 2009, 08:37 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Stupidly, I posted this comment on this thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=9591 when it should be on this one Hi Tim, the illustration of the 'stone headed' club shows that it is mounted to the side of the shaft......yours is mounted on top. So I am not so certain that we can ID yours from the drawing. Regards David

1st November 2009, 03:13 PM	#3
Bryan.H Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 51	I wouldn't be surprised if this club originated from Australia... Here's a link showing a modern aboriginal elder making a stone hatchet. http://earthsci.org/aboriginal/index.html#restoreaxe The technique of binding is very similar. With regards to the 'telegraph' wire, this type of insulated wire is similar to that used in old houses over here, and the aboriginal people are famous for their ingenuity in combining new materials with ancient technological methods (i.e. flint-knapping glass of broken beer bottles to make spear heads in remote areas up to the 1960's and later). I can't say for sure it's an 100% Australian Aboriginal artefact, but it would not look out of place in the Australian Aboriginal material culture of the early 20th century.

1st November 2009, 03:58 PM	#4
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Comming in rather late here. Looks very neolithic to me. A poor flint or /often refered to as chert (sometimes not entirely accurately). I find the simple shaping also reminds me of neolithic tools. Any chance its a victorian 'authentic' rehafting of a British Neolithic club? I've seen EBA stuff remounted in the 19thC.

1st November 2009, 08:19 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	If it is Australian or even Australasian the the analysis should have no problem in finding the answer. It is what I have thought right from the start. The problem lies in the cell structure of a genus that is common to vast areas of the world like Oak. I bet the wood is from the southern hemisphere anyway.

1st November 2009, 08:56 PM	#6
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Good luck, Tim. I suspect you'll get a good answer on the wood ID if it's tropical. Even oak wood is variable enough that they can get it to at least subgenus, if not species. The only challenge is whether they have that species in their type collection or not. On the other hand, it's good to know that we came up with the same answer as the collections managers of the British Museum (i.e. what the heck is it?). Kudos to us. Best, F