A mysterious Transylvanian sword : a Sino-Japanese influence possible ?

[Radu Transylvanicus]

IAN quote "That this is work of the highest quality for its time is not disputed. But I'm going to agree with Rick and say that this is entirely a European creation. I don't think we need to see any more of this sword to reasonably reach that conclusion. The man who signed his name to this sword was a master craftsman, and the sword is testimony to his genius."

IAN, I like your first phrase better: "a European's synthesis of what an oriental style sword would be" and you must agree once an Oriental sword ( wether Japanese, Chinese or Indochinese) has been the decisional factor and inspiration, basically the muse of this one sword regardless if it is from a visual memory, from a description, from a graphic or artistic resource it ceases to exist as "completely European" but I have a gut feeling that actualy it might actually incorporate real parts from an original Asian sword, I still primarily stick with Japanese heritage IMO and I leave the dha variant as secondary option.
And against odds, I really do think we need to see all the sword including scabbard, the grip and one short section of the blade we saw so far are far from enough to basis for a final conclusion, more like stirring the spirits. Its far from over...
I would also like to thank everyone of you for the aflux of ideeas, opinions , resources and energy you all well spend in this quest, its a good reminder why I love this Forum so much !
Other things I see: the gems and encrusting has been executed in Transylvania, that I have no doubt, more likely by Thomas Kapustran and am almost certain it is the case with the floral enameling, that is 100% European somehow similar examples can be seen in Ottoman art (again, we are in 1674 Transylvania and Turk Ottoman control weights heavy!)
As far as the guard, that is one of the most un-European things on this sword, the resemblance if not similarity with a tsuba is striking and corect me if I'm wrong, you even have the riobitsu holes (look on the second image closer) regardless if purpose or simply fashion. Further you see the fittings welded together the collar (habaki) and spacers (seppa).
As far as the disconcern for the blade as being original, remember not all, as a matter of fact very many blades were made of plain non-grain steel named muji, commonly seen in the maru-gitae swords of the New Sword period (1530 to 1868)... Maru gitae is a type of construction with one grade steel used for mass production. Swords of this type ussualy reveal a smooth grainless appearance on their surfaces. Credits: The Samurai Sword - a handbook by J. M. Yumoto . Chapters: Blade construction / Grain pages 94 & 95
Last night I had a sweet dream that myself I dismantled the jewelry from the grip of the sword and there was a big old Kanji signature on the tang there but that was just my dream... I also had this one dream when I was a child that one day I will come to America ...ahem. ahem ... and last winter I got my Greencard ...

[tom hyle]

A/ such relatively homogenous steel would still, at the time, be folded and have grain. B/ equally in Europe as in Japan. C/in the one closeup I see several spots of what I'm pretty sure are folds/lamination.
I disagree that bigger pictures, overall pictures are liable to tell us much more though I'd enjoy them; closeups of the blade would probably be the most useful, and we have them. More would not likely tell us more, except that it might be useful to see the tip of the blade (though if it's "correct" that tells us little, and if it's "incorrect" there is much more variation in old Japanese swords than people often seem to realized, so that tells us little, too.). I think the guard/seppa(and there are similar features on many European swords; sheath lids, oval discs, and leather and felt washers of the seppa shape)/habiki was cast in one piece. I'm not certain, but that's my thinking. Look inside the piercings; look where each flows into the other; I see no join lines, though certainly such can be cleverly hidden. I do not think the silver ring around the edge is a layer; I think it's a ring soldered into a groove. This is guesswork based on what I can see; it could be wrong; those brass coloured flower centers could be rivets, even. (photos..... ) I still see nothing to argue for an Asian origin for this heavily Asian-influenced object. The Ottoman connection seems interesting, but the handle construction seems European? One thing worth noting is that the blade seems to have a shinogi zukuri cross-section; sabre-bevelled with a (somewhat rounded and indestinct, but present) ridge down the middle(ish) of its width.

[tom hyle]

Hmmm. I think I do now see layering inside one of the piercings, and the layer line I see delineates the same thickness as seen framing the silve line at the edges. Hmmm. A stacked rivetted guard reminds me most closely of "migration era" German work, which is way out of sphere......

[Radu Transylvanicus]

I am very proud to say that minutes ago, I sent an e-letter to the host establishment of the sword in discussion, the German museum of "Staatliche Kunstsammlungen Dresden" with a request for additional images and written information and hopefully my kharma is good !
Wolviex, how about the prestigious Krakow Museum library, anything you can dig up would be appreciated !

[wolviex]

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

Wolviex, how about the prestigious Krakow Museum library, anything you can dig up would be appreciated !

Of course Radu, I have just ordered Jahrbuch (yearbook) of this Museum and I'll check it for you in few days + some books and catalouges . I have checked few so far but I couldn't find anything so far

Regards!

[Jim McDougall]

I have been detached from my computer for the past two days, and you guys have really been busy with this one!!! It really is a fascinating topic that Radu has brought up, not to mention what a fantastic sword this is. I did take along some books, and although everybody is hot on the trail already I wanted to add some material that may be pertinant.

The 18th century was in my opinion one of the most fascinating centuries for the development of swords, and considerable geopolitical activity between Asia and Europe. Obviously trade between the orient and occidental countries was long standing but during the 17th century became more pronounced especially with the Dutch East India Company. As has been mentioned, the Namban period in Japan led to more pronounced contact with many countries and one instance I found interesting in research some time ago, was the presence of a Sinhalese kastane in a Tokyo museum from the Keicho mission in 1613-1620. This example is one of the earliest examples of the familiar kastane known in present form. This Japanese diplomatic mission visited Mexico, Spain and Italy, then the Philippines. (Bulletin of Sendai Museum, Tokyo, 1998, #18, pp.28-62).

While the Transylvanian example certainly has an obvious resemblance to a Japanese katana or wakizashi, I do agree that this has profound European gestalt as an interpretation of an Oriental sabre. I am inclined to agree more with the likelihood of Chinese influence, and that this may be an interpretation of a Chinese peidao. It is important to note however that the disc shaped hand guard (tsuba) distinctive to the Japanese sword was adopted some time prior to the latter 15th c. During this and the 16th c. the Japanese imported many swords into China and the Chinese adopted this form guard (in China the huba or hu shou) almost exclusively by mid-Ming dynasty( "Introduction to Chinese Sabres:The Peidao of the Ming through Qing Dynasties", Philip Tom & Scott Rodell, 1999). By the 18th century, the Qianlong Emperor (1736-95) was expanding his frontiers to the west. It would seem quite likely that there would have been even more pronounced contact with Europe via Central Asia and the Silk Road than had been extant for many centuries.

In the 18th century there was also a great call for fashionable swords for the gentry and nobility with the development of smallswords and highly decorated court swords. One popular style applied to many of these was 'chinoiserie' (Fr. Chinese motif) which used techniques and decorative motif reflecting Chinese subjects.
In "The Smallsword in England" (London ,1945, p.57-58) J.D.Aylward notes that the smallswords decorated in Chinese style and often known as 'Tonquinese' were probably made for the Dutch East India Co. in Peking rather than in Tonquin c.1710-1750. It is noted that the company brought some Chinese workmen to Europe where they produced in Amsterdam hilts of similar smallsword character and were fitted with blades made in Holland and in Solingen. These hilts were of the typical 'Tonquinese' black shakudo bronze.

With the European fascination with the orient during these times, and with the competitive and ambitious efforts of Solingen in its rapidly evolving edged weapons industry, it does not seem unlikely that they could produce high quality blades much in the manner of swords of the orient. It seems quite likely that a Transylvanian maker such as Thomas Kapustran might well have produced a fashionable gentlemans sword in such oriental style, and might have been influenced by weapons that had come to Solingen via Chinese workers from Holland. Equally, the interest of the French courts in 'chinoiserie' motif certainly must have been apparant in Transylvanian courts with the alliance with Louis XIV, and an order for a superb weapon such as this would have made quite a fashion statement.

Very much looking forward to hearing more on Radu's query to the museum.

Best regards,
Jim

[Tatyana Dianova]

I have seen this sword many times in Dresdner Ruestkammer, in exposition together with other East Asian weapons (some katanas and kerises). If I remember correctly, it is stated, that the blade of this sword is of Japanese origin, and handle of Europenean.
Greetings from Germany,
Tatyana

[Ian]

Tatyana:

Thank you and welcome to the Forum.

Perhaps you could help direct us to the latest catalog or other reference material that may have a picture or more information about this sword. Radu will feel highly vindicated if the sword has a Japanese blade.

Ian.

[wolviex]

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

Wolviex, how about the prestigious Krakow Museum library, anything you can dig up would be appreciated !

Bad news Radu - in Dresden museum Jahrbuch from years 1959-1987, there is nothing what could help us with this sword. I will seek further. I really hope that someone from Dresden's museum will answer you, it may solve many our problems at once.

Regards!

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Well... Tatyana has seen it with her own eyes, she saw it, next to are you ready: another one European styled sword "a la Japonaise" ... So we know its still there sitting next to someething similar.
The sad part is I received no answer from the Dresden Museum so far, perhaps it takes long to process their e-mails ...
There is also this of course, I hope she is OK with quoting her :
Quote from Tatyana Dianova:
"I have seen this sword many times in Dresdner Ruestkammer, in exposition together with other East Asian weapons (some katanas and kerises). If I remember correctly, it is stated, that the blade of this sword is of Japanese origin, and handle of Europenean.
Greetings from Germany,
Tatyana "

[Jim McDougall]

While my opinions on the origins of this sword align more with the suggestions that this entire sword is of European manufacture, made with composite impressions of Asian swords which were well known via trade and diplomatic relations...it would be very exciting if Radu's guess was right

Using evidence at hand, which includes a photo of only a small section of the forte of the blade, and an account of a museum label accompanying the sword and stating the blade is of oriental origin, it is clear much more proof is needed to prove this either way.

As I have mentioned in my earlier post, there was considerable diplomatic and trade activity with Japan during the 17th century, and it does seem remotely possible that a Japanese sword may have come into the Eastern European sphere via the Dutch East India Company. It is important to note that the Japanese did not engage in the trade of blades, and if a sword would have been issued or presented diplomatically, it would have been fully furbished.
Why then would a Japanese blade be mounted with an interpretive European hilt? and how would it have been obtained. The only plausible idea I can think of would be that a Japanese blade being kept in the shira-saya scabbard and apart from its mounts might have become separated from the hilt elements.
If this was the case, and if the sword carries historical data associated with its apparant importance, it seems the museums display would offer more.
Hopefully this will be forthcoming when Radu hears from them.

If, more likely, a Transylvanian swordsmith created this beautiful example it would be a testament to the outstanding craftsmanship of these ateliers for not only mounts, but blades as well.

In a thread some time ago, a similar case arose when we noticed a photo of the Sioux Chief Red Cloud, in his home c.1880's. On the wall behind him was clearly a Japanese katana! The discussion ensuing tried to determine what in the world was a Sioux Chief of the American Plains doing with a Japanese sword? It was pretty much agreed that the sword had come to Washington via diplomatic contact with Japan, and apparantly was given to Red Cloud in similar circumstances while he visited Washington during treaty engagements.
Later, more research suggested there were possibilities of swords coming to this continent from Asia, especially Japan via trade networks to the Northwest.
Another interesting instance of Japanese swords found in unexpected settings was a reference in Petersons "Arms and Armor in Colonial America", where a 'Japanese cutlass' is mentioned in an inventory sheet from the colonies in the 17th century. No explanatory data or further reference occurs, but the mention seems dynamically unusual!!

Best regards,
Jim

[Gavin Nugent]

As this is one of my all time favorite swords within these pages so I wanted to bring these two threads together.

In the below link, Tatyana notes in post #3 reference to this sword being discussed.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...den+armoury%27

Post #4 shows more detail of the sword and its Japanese scabbard and the others of a type are shown in post #3.

Gavin

[Tatyana Dianova]

Another example of the trade activity with Japan during the 17th century, via the Dutch East India Company, is the sword and the cane below. The very fine Sakudo fittings were made in Japan in 17th century for the European market, and were mounted in Europe on the dress sword blade. The Tsar Peter the Great has presented the sword and the cane to the August the Strong of Saxony during his trip from Holland to Russia. The second, very similar sword he has kept to himself – it is kept in Kremlin Armory in Moscow, and it was exhibited earlier this year in Dresden (see ‘Zwischen Orient und Okzident: Kunstschätze des Kreml von Iwan dem Schrecklichen bis Peter dem Großen’ catalogue). Most probably, he acquired both swords in Holland.
I was lucky to see the both swords, but it will be difficult in the future: the Peter’s sword returned to Moscow and the August’s sword is not exhibited anymore… The whole Dresdner Armory (I mean exhibition rooms :-) has moved from the old large hall in Zwinger to the newly restored Dresdner Palace, and has got less place and much! less swords shown… Especially the European collection has suffered… So the blurry pictures I have taken in the old armory, where I have spent earlier many hours, look pretty nostalgic to me…

[asomotif]

Originally Posted by Tatyana Dianova

The very fine Sakudo fittings were made in Japan in 17th century for the European market, and were mounted in Europe on the dress sword blade.…

Also note the same kawa / rayskin on the scabbard