european blade?

[celtan]

firangi?


Didn't those guys appear on STTNG..?





Seriously,

The term Moor basically means "dark", on account of the dark djilabas they chose to wear. Moro, Marron, Marroon, Mauritania. Same word root.

The arabs mostly called us "dhimmi", or "guilty". They mostly used the term Rumi on Byzantines and Greeks, if I recall correctly.

Best

M

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Excellent and most helpful information Fernando! I wasnt sure on the firangi term, but certainly makes sense...didnt know about the Arab term for Christians either. Interesting that the Christians used the term Moors rather comprehensively for Muslims, after the term Saracens earlier, while the Arabs used the Rumes term.
Following the development of terminology is fascinating in our studies, and really helps as we examine contemporary narratives.
Thanks very much,
All the best,
Jim

[ward]

The arabs mostly called us "dhimmi", or "guilty". They mostly used the term Rumi on Byzantines and Greeks, if I recall correctly.
Dhimmi means 'protected' in Arabic, it refers to non-Muslims in a political context. I've never heard it trasnlated as guilty. Rumi referred to Byzantines early in Ottoman history but the word also meant Ottomans later on.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by ward

[I] ...Rumi referred to Byzantines early in Ottoman history but the word also meant Ottomans later on.

In strict terms ...

RUMES WERE INHABITANTS OF ANCIENT TRACIA, LATER ROMANIA, AND THEIR NATURALS ROMANIS, TO WHOM THE TURKS CALLED RUMELI AND WE CALLED RUMES (Diogo do Couto 1542-1616).

In this picture, painted by an anonimous Portuguese traveller in the XVI century, Rumes as depicted inhabited the straight of Meca and Baçorá.
According to Gaspar Correia (1495-1561), they used various weapons, namely wide and long swords, and they were also great shooters.

Fernando

.

[celtan]

Interesting.

Rumanians were christians, but these have a definite muslim/turkish appearance...

The Meca and Basra Straits lie on opposite sides of Saudi Arabia, Rumania lies in South Eastern Europe. Perhaps the Rumes mentioned and portrayed were arabic descendants of Romanians?

BTW, his sword resembles the german "malchus" falchion from another EA thread.

M

Originally Posted by fernando

In strict terms ...

RUMES WERE INHABITANTS OF ANCIENT TRACIA, LATER ROMANIA, AND THEIR NATURALS ROMANIS, TO WHOM THE TURKS CALLED RUMELI AND WE CALLED RUMES (Diogo do Couto 1542-1616).

In this picture, painted by an anonimous Portuguese traveller in the XVI century, Rumes as depicted inhabited the straight of Meca and Baçorá.
According to Gaspar Correia (1495-1561), they used various weapons, namely wide and long swords, and they were also great shooters.

Fernando

.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by celtan

Interesting.

Rumanians were christians, but these have a definite muslim/turkish appearance...

These aquareles were the first depiction of peoples ever made 'on the field'; the author was certainly a shrewd observer but not a schoolled painter, instead visibly a naïve artist.
The description of weaponry by Correia (or and other cronichlers)may not necessarily coincide with the designs.

Originally Posted by celtan

... The Meca and Basra Straits lie on opposite sides of Saudi Arabia, Rumania lies in South Eastern Europe. Perhaps the Rumes mentioned and portrayed were arabic descendants of Romanians?

Peoples move and migrate; when Gaspar Correia reported on the Rumes type of weaponry, they were participating in the first siege of Diu (1538).

Fernando

[fernando]

Frangue (Frank) in malay, is peringgi, and farangi or frangi in Egiptian dialect or Persian, literaly meaning «FRANK».

[ausjulius]

interesting with the use of ferangi, Frangue , feranghi... ect is common in most of asian and the middle east to describe either europeans or european products. imparticular cannons......
i recall that the chinese ad vietnamese development of ball firing cannons is both linked to imported frankish cannons..
and if im not mistaken there is a chinese work for cannon that contains their symbol for the franks....
this is odd.... it is strange the technology traveled so far and people still new where it came from , i guess maybe the mongols or other nomads like the bulgars,, tatars ect may have been responceable for this ,, as these cultures had direct contact with both the far east and western europe....

another poin might be because of the distributation of moslems.. and the fact that the convege on mecca regulary that the term spread this way along with the frankish cannons.........

[celtan]

Hi Ward,
I don't speak arabic. Got the translation from Rober Spencer's"The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam". Seems there are two different meanings for the same word.
Best
M

Originally Posted by ward

The arabs mostly called us "dhimmi", or "guilty". They mostly used the term Rumi on Byzantines and Greeks, if I recall correctly.
Dhimmi means 'protected' in Arabic, it refers to non-Muslims in a political context. I've never heard it trasnlated as guilty. Rumi referred to Byzantines early in Ottoman history but the word also meant Ottomans later on.