Sold for $482,000 inclusive of Buyer's Premium

[Tim Simmons]

It so happens that the area under disscusion is rich in iron ore. Could be another one of those arguements like the use of brass in Africa. Poor modern historical documentation, limited archeaology coupled with a high minded and dissmisive period. These late 19th and early 20th century thoughts are increasingly being questioned. Todays research it undertaken with less baggage. I am not saying anything but it is possible .

[asomotif]

but in a museum where everyone can see it?

I wonder if museums would be willing to spend such an amount on one knife ?

Nice knife btw

[David]

Originally Posted by asomotif

I wonder if museums would be willing to spend such an amount on one knife ?

Nice knife btw

I think that would depend on which museum.
Don't get me wrong. I am not, in general, against personal ownership of cultural items. But this is not an everyman's dagger, or even a wealthy man's dagger. Daggers like these are akin in my mind to the royal regalia of one of the Javanese kraton. They have deep historical and cultural importance and significance.

[asomotif]

Dear David,

I fully agree with you on the importance of such objects.
But do the musea in North America think the same way ?

Do they have pieces like this in musea ?

Best regards,
Willem

[David]

Originally Posted by asomotif

Dear David,

I fully agree with you on the importance of such objects.
But do the musea in North America think the same way ?

Do they have pieces like this in musea ?

Best regards,
Willem

Well my first hope is that most of these are still held by representatives of active tribes and continue to be ritually used.
Frankly i don't want to second guess how museums think, but i've rarely had much faith in them to do the right thing in regards to identification or presentation. One that i do really like (though i have not been there in years) is the American Indian Museum in NYC. I don't know if they have an example of this type of dagger in their collections, but i would think that there is at least a fair chance that they do.

[David]

Originally Posted by asomotif

Do they have pieces like this in musea ?

Well, they have one in the National American Indian Museum in Washington.
http://americanindian.si.edu/searchc...9566&culid=453

[David]

Here are a couple more in their collection.
http://americanindian.si.edu/searchc...Knife%2fDagger
Interesting that the first one here has a sheath for the hilt/pommel.

[David]

Originally Posted by asomotif

Do they have pieces like this in musea ?

....and just to put 2 nails in the answer, these 2 blades that i linked to earlier were both returned to tribes by museums, so i guess the answer is a resounding yes.

[David]

And i just noticed that the bear dagger also has a sheath for the hilt.

[Lew]

I really don't think these daggers are older than 1835-50 certainly not 1700s. I can't be sure but I think that the introduction of iron to the west coast tribes had to come after 1805 unless the Spanish traded with these tribes and taught them how to forge iron and steel weapons. Copper weapons yes but iron is much harder to forge and the fuller work looks very sophisticated to me. I will do some research and get back to you.

FIRST CONTACT WITH EUROPEANS
Europeans arrived in Tlingit country for the first time in 1741, when Russian explorer Aleksey Chirikov sent a boatload of men to land for water near the modern site of Sitka. When the group did not return for several days, he sent another boat of men to shore; they also did not return. Thereafter, contact with Tlingit people was limited until well into the 1800s.

The site stated that American involvement did not start until the 1860s and I am pretty sure that these daggers are from 1860s-90s.

[archer]

I ran across a bulletin fro the University of Pennsylvania Vol 11, Number 3 Spring of 1969. Dealer who sold it may have more but is gone until October. The bulletin has a variety of information by John Witthoft and His wife Francis Eyman. They talked about sources of meteorite for steel. Also from ship wrecks. They felt strongly that metallurgy was going on in the interior of Alaska before contact with outsiders. They identified Three sources of copper.
The Tlingits' were used to working with stone tools and sawed their copper with stone Their blades had an applied ridge. The Athabaskans Dene were actually forging and tempering copper blades in their fires. Dene type blades are voluted handled blades by 1850 steel had replaced copper blades. Back to reading some more. i was a bunch taken back by the price this fantastic knife brought, but, had to laugh at the string holding the hide on the hilt.

I got lucky enough to repatriate one from new york back to Alaska it's now about 150 miles North of where it came from originally. The Copper river where all the tasty Red Salmon come from.