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29th May 2009, 01:08 AM
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,281
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Quote:
That makes good sense, and as I think was mentioned, many of these known seem to have the numbering considerably affected by the corrosive and abrasive effects of presumably the powder. Thank you for the great links, and I can see that as an elevation tool, these single scales would not be able to provide the geometric latitude of adjustable quadrant and graduated arc. So these geometric instruments, quadrants, that were used c.1530's were seemingly pretty well established for artillery gunners.......any information on what they used in those days to guage the charge and measure the powder? We know that by 1661, the gunners stiletto's had the numeric scales on them....maybe the function of measuring simply was a ruler or graduated stick? It would seem that these marked stilettos were probably genuinely used for the purpose suggested, of measuring powder, and it was suggested that they were possibly a mark of specialist elite, or possibly rank (chief cannonneer). Perhaps, the spurious marking of stilettos resulted because of these effectively outlawed weapons, thus the numbers of them known. Apparantly the fusetti "'gunners stiletto') was so well known it was called colloquially 'un centoventi' (Ital.=one hundred twenty) for the high number on the scale on them. All the best, Jim |
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29th May 2009, 01:28 AM
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#2 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,247
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I agree with all this. One thing I'm wondering is whether these knives were also used to measure off fuse lengths.
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29th May 2009, 10:51 AM
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#3 |
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Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Kent
Posts: 2,658
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I have a problem believing the stilleto would be any use if a 'gun' enplacement was 'over-run'. Cannons would be a strategic target....and its 'capture' would add to your fire power against the enemy.
Thinking 'laterally' I wonder if the stilleto had another use.....if you quenched the blade ...without tempering it, the blade would be very hard...but brittle. Still functional as a stabbing weapon but could be used to incapacitate a cannon.... Your position is over-run, the enemy are about to capture your guns ...you stick the stilleto in the fuse hole (perhaps even 'hammer it in ) hardened steel would 'bite' into the softer iron,....grab the hilt and snap the (brittle) blade ...which would likely snap 'flush' with the cannons outer surface. This would be very difficult to remove, especially in 'battle' conditions. Voila...a cannon without a useable fuse hole ......a cannon that cannot be 'turned' on your comrades.. Regards David PS the 'graduation' marks ...if deep enough ....would make good 'snapping' points Last edited by katana; 29th May 2009 at 11:44 AM. |
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29th May 2009, 04:08 PM
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#4 |
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(deceased)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
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Artillery measuring tools
With about all having been said and considered, I am afraid that I will not be able to contribute substantially. Artillery is just not sufficiently covered by my expertise but I finally did manage to find some more illustrations.
Unfortunately they cannot shed new light either on the discussion whether the numeric scales on gunners' stilettoes etc. refer to caliber or cannon adjustment. Literature seems to be very vague on these issues. About all I could find seems to prove that Jim is absolutely right in postulating an Italian provenance for gunners' stilettoes in general. The caption to the stiletto below just notes 'stiletto with artillery scale, Venice, ca. 1670'. I add some original illustrative sources on the use of artillery quadrants and other measuring methods, though. Best, Michael |
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29th May 2009, 04:13 PM
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#5 |
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(deceased)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
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A combined fighting axe and artillery quadrant made for Duke Julius of Brunswick in about 1585, and a combined gunner's calipers and dagger, Italian, ca. 1630.
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29th May 2009, 04:18 PM
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#6 |
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(deceased)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
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Some historic sources of illustration, ca. 1560 to late 17th c.
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29th May 2009, 04:19 PM
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#7 |
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(deceased)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
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Adjusting a cannon for firing stone balls of varying weight, 16th c.
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30th May 2009, 12:23 PM
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#8 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Kent
Posts: 2,658
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Quote:
Hi It seems 'plugging' the touch hole was a common procedure when necessary. I still think that the stilleto, carried by the gunners, would be quickly and easily accessible and if the 'point' thin enough would make an ideal spike. ".....When a cannon had to be abandoned such as in a retreat or surrender, the touch hole of the cannon would be plugged flush with a iron spike, disabling the cannon (at least until metal boring tools could be used to remove the plug). This was called "spiking the cannon"...." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannon Regards David |
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30th May 2009, 05:34 PM
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#9 | |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,281
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Quote:
This is a very interesting aspect of artillery, and as I have noted before, not having great familiarity with this topic, had not really 'struck home' as it were. In rethinking the plausibility of these actually quite attractive and fascinating daggers being sacrificed to this clearly basic necessity, I returned to the original article to recheck the note on this. Terenzi does state that these 'fusetto' were likely used, if such be the case, to foul the touchhole as described. It is noted as well that the author was 'uncomfortable' with the position that these gunners stilettos were exclusive to the artillerymen of Venice, though it was well known that the Venetian 'fire mouths' were the best organized and proficient in the world. With this, it seems odd that only 6 examples of these exist in Venetian museums. With this apparantly well established elitism, Angelucci (Turin, 1890, cited by Terenzi) accepted the thesis that these daggers were issued to Venetian cannoneers as 'badges of corps' without any function as either tools or weapons. He suggested further (and questionably) that the scales were applied without order or meaning. This presumption seems well disproven, but is included here as worthy of note. It would seem to me that with the Venetian artillery, an elite corps considered the best organized in the world of the time, would have a 'tapered steel pin' fashioned as a round device specifically for this reluctant but necessary action. Surely, one of these gunners would not sacrifice what seem to be rather valued weapons in this manner, except as a last resort. The practice of 'spiking' cannon, or otherwise disabling them, seems well known as a standard military practice throughout the history of these weapons. With this being the case, certainly such spikes must have been part of the accoutrements accompanying the gun crews, and I wonder if such items exist among the holdings of old artillery miscellania. I am inclined to think that a weapon such as a stiletto, regardless of how it was used, would not be left deliberately brittle, nor with deep incisions intended to break the blade more easily. Despite the obvious shortcomings of these daggers as defensive weapons, I think that much as most weapons worn in dress or court situations, they were entirely capable of at least limited combat potential. Regarding my previous note on the advent of premeasured containers of powder precluding the need for these for measure, it is noted by Terenzi that these needlepoint stilettos served well to puncture the containers to release powder ar key locations for ignition. |
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