Meteoric iron used for keris's vs. for Indian weapons

Rick · 29th April 2005, 10:36 PM

Most Honored ,
I enter this discussion as a member , not as a staff member .
I have a suggestion and please do not take insult from it I beg of you .
Rather than Nechesh investing possibly years learning the art of divination why not find someone to accept this million dollar challenge :

http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

I assure you this is not a joke , it is a serious effort to discover if powers as you claim do indeed exist .

Most respectfully submitted .

Rick
EEWRS

Kiai Carita · 29th April 2005, 10:45 PM

Rick thakn you for your link to the million dollar challenge. I have not claimed any supernatural powers of the keris itself but I have claimed that the Merpati Putih school of martial arts can teach how to see with every cell of your body. The school's headquarters is in Yogyakarta and I would be happy to take you there and ask to see a demonstration. I would also be happy to share the million dollars with you.

Salam Keris

Rick · 29th April 2005, 10:51 PM

Most Honored , I only bring the challenge forth to try to settle the question at hand . I was not referring to the keris ; I was referring to the act of seeing with every cell of one's body .
Possibly you can contact the school to see if they have any interest . Even if they eschew the cash award it could be put to good use for any charity or school endeavor in Jawa .

Now I will step out of this discussion .

Thank you .

nechesh · 29th April 2005, 10:56 PM

Kiai, you write english exceptionally well, but i get the feeling you either are nt understanding my words or you are making assumption to what i am saying without really reading my posts. I am certainly NOT "slagging off" the mystical powers of the empu. However, even the most astute empu would have great difficulty locating pieces of nickelous meteorite that don't exist. Angain i must state what a rare occurance such a meteorite is and to hit such a small island in SEA with all that surrounding sea. I am not asking you for evidence to prove the mystical powers of the empu. Your assumption that i know nothing of such powers because i am from a different culture than yours borders on racism itself. My life has been steeped in mystical practice from many different cultures for the past 25 yrs. or more. I do, however, appreciate your suggestions and will look further into 'gerak nurani' though i hardly need to in order to understand and appreciate the powers of the ancient empu.

Kiai Carita · 29th April 2005, 11:16 PM

Dear Nechesh, I am glad to hear you are not slagging off the old Mpu. However if you think of the meteorite that have been showering earth since the beginning of time then there must be meteorite in rivers where the surface soil is brought by the waters. If only one gramme of meteorite fell on Java every year since the beginning of time how many tonnes of the stuff would be there when the Mpu's began to take center stage in the 10'th century?

You will not need years to be able to practise 'gerak nurani'. You only need a teacher to show you how and in ten minutes you will be able to do it. Find your lost keyes and stuff like that. To get really sensitive however you need longer. ... Also not only nickel containing meteorite can be used as pamor. The idea of nickel is new in kerisology, introduced by the Dutch of the old scientific school. The Javanese never knew the Western metalurgy and they had dozens of names for iron.

Salam Keris

BluErf · 30th April 2005, 01:43 AM

Interesting discussion, Gentlemen. I haven't read a series of posts as well written as Kiai Carita's for a while. Thank you and welcome to the forum, Kiai Carita.

What I'm going to write is not directly linked to the discussion above, but just some thoughts that arose while reading the posts.

While I am not a believer of supernatural or paranormal activities/powers, I do see the point that the keris in totality is anchored in more than the material world. And it is up to the individual how they want to approach the keris. So I would say Nechesh and Kiai Carita are on different sides of the same coin, and finding it difficult to see face-to-face. But that is not to say anyone is right or wrong. The world is made up of all views, just like in order to appreciate the keris, one must look at all physical angles, and then the non-physical aspects too. Some of us are 'irreconciliably' anchored in one aspect, but that is alright. Its our karma and dharma.

I think it is as important to consider how the keris is treated and perceived, as it is to look at what it is physically. The keris is a different thing as seen by different eyes, from the local Southeast Asians to the Westerners who 'veni, vidi, vici' centuries past and brought back a whole bunch of kerises to Europe (in a certain way, a fortunate outcome of an unhappy past because some of the most beautiful kerises got preserved immaculately).

Anyway, in totality, apart from the physical attributes and composition that make a keris beautiful and/or lethal, the keris has an aspect of mysticism and esoterism that is not so readily shared, understood or seen. However, just because it cannot be seen or proven does not mean it is not there (or there, for that matter). In fact, it may have never been meant to be proven. But not able to prove something does not make the thing less real. An idea/concept/story does not need to be proven. They are. (Well, if someone wants to find the exact origins, what happened to who, why the idea came up, produce evidence, etc, he could do that, but that's not the point). Just as some of these things run on 'faith', they also run on 'views'. As we may have observed, sometimes, when enough people subscribes to a view, it becomes the 'truth'.

And also, sometimes, things we cannot understand or prove is just something we cannot understand or prove. e.g. there is this man in China who can generate so much heat from his hands that he can cook a fish just holding on to it. There's this Korean master who could hold a spoonful of molten lead in his mouth. I have personally experienced a Tai Chi master who can control electricity from a live wire and allow small 'hair-raising' current to pass on to people holding onto his bare hands (in fact he could vary the current passing through). So maybe it is not too difficult to imagine people who are attuned to finding things (for whatever reasons unexplained, but not necessary paranormal/supernatural). Hey we have Jedi knights who can see into the future with the aid of the 'Force', right?

Ok, I think my thoughts are not coming together in a disciplined manner, so I better stop this verbal diarrhea.

BluErf · 30th April 2005, 02:18 AM

I just read the other thread started by Vinny and regrets that it came to a rather unhappy ending. But anyway, lets not get red-faced and boiling when discussing keris.

I think we read too much into words sometimes (me included), and our emotions inserts 'extra' meaning/insinuation to those words that did not intend to convey those meaning/insinuation.

Studying or collecting keris is about patience and acceptance of diversity (from ideas, context to keris dress and dapur, etc). Lets strive towards these qualities.

Free smiles for everyone today!!!!!!!!!!

Rick · 30th April 2005, 02:32 AM

We need more smiles in our Keris discussions !!

Andrew · 30th April 2005, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

I just read the other thread started by Vinny and regrets that it came to a rather unhappy ending. But anyway, lets not get red-faced and boiling when discussing keris.

I think we read too much into words sometimes (me included), and our emotions inserts 'extra' meaning/insinuation to those words that did not intend to convey those meaning/insinuation.

Studying or collecting keris is about patience and acceptance of diversity (from ideas, context to keris dress and dapur, etc). Lets strive towards these qualities.

Free smiles for everyone today!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers, Kai Wee!

Boedhi Adhitya · 3rd May 2005, 05:43 AM

Greetings...

I would like to share some of my thought about this interesting topic. Thought i'm new to this forum, but i considered myself not new to keris (hopefully

) and have some first-hand-experience, because, lucky me

, i live in Yogyakarta.

1. Why pamor is almost always considered as made from meteorite, especially by the Javanese ? IMHO, it's connected to the making process of the keris itself. While the empu make the keris, he (or she) is considered to act as a priest who marrying the heaven (the meteorite) and the earth (the iron). When the making is done, the picture of pamor on the blade is considered as the heaven's fate for the owner of the keris, so it's very important. If it's not made from meteorite (which is, sad to say, quite often), the sense of "heaven's fate" will be diminished. So, for the Javanese, the pamor is almost always considered as made of meteorite, as it act as the heavens, but for those who studied the keris (even if he is Javanese), it'sn't always meteorite.
For other cultures, "the act of marrying heaven and earth" by the bladesmith might not exist, so the meteorite used in making the blade only considered as the add of beauty and rarity, plus some mystic power, of course

But it's never considered as the heaven's fate for the owner.

2. It's correct that not all the meteorite could be used to make the keris. I had asked this question to Empu Djeno (long before I join this forum off course, not when one of us ask about it

) the last living empu decendant who still make keris in Yogyakarta. He told me once he received order to make a keris from Belgian, who bring his own meteorite. But this meteorite can't stand the forging process. Prambanan meteorite is rich in iron and other metal, which resemble a chunk of metal than a pieces of stone. I've handle one of these which is belongs to Karaton of Yogyakarta for exhibition.

3. Only nem-neman keris made of Prambanan meteorite. For those who want authentic meteorite on it's blade, just run for the nem-neman (young) keris which is made when PB IX or X reigned in Surakarta, or HB VII - VIII reigned in Yogyakarta. Just be carefull, the keris maker in Madura is able today to make the keris almost identically the same as those nem-neman. the pamor is made from nickelous iron (perhaps they read this forum also

) Even Javanesse keris experts have difficulties to identify them. But for those who love the old ones, just relax, The Madura's maker never be able to copy them

4. To identify the material used for pamor by see or touch it is tricky for those who never seen different keris more than 5 a day for a month, even ones who had the chance may still make a mistakes. The elders in Java always said the best way to study keris is to look at it as much as you can get, the more the better, the best if the keris from the first-class quality. The things I can tell you, the meteorite pamor gives more color gradations/hue. It's dark gray, gray, white, and shining metallic-white,(etched or not) all in one. the best way to see it is under the sun ray. The ray from any artificial source will hardly reveal it. it's also sharp to the touch. The prambanan pamor has distinct characteristic, it's exhibit metallic-white and yellowish color. The madura's pamors, usually have pure (and boring) metallic white, not too sharp to the touch. But for the high-quality ones, they add some impurities, so it's more difficult for us to identify. The pamor made from lower grade iron, perhaps high in phosphorus, have a chalk-like dull white color, not sharp to the touch and usually do not stand etching.
5. In the ancient times, there were so many empu, so many style. They made so many kerises, from low grade quality to the high ones. The high ones, were only made by the court's empus. Why ? Because the court had the power to ask best empu in their region to work for them, had the money to bring the best material existed, and the most important, they kept the best work of the earlier empu, so the later, could learn and perfected the work of the earlier, something not possible for the empu outside the court. From my experiences, the pamor of good quality old kerises usually exhibit the characteristic of meteoric pamor (like prambanan ones, minus the yellowish hue), so I think it's save for me to say that it's made of meteorite. If it isn't, the empus might have developed a way to purify nickelous (or titanium, according to Arumbinang research) ore.
I do admit (and hoping) that scientific research on keris metallurgy must be carried over, because so many questions arise around it.

One more thing, it was quite usual for empus to mix several kind of iron and even pamor materials. Because "pamor" word, in Javanese language, came from the word "wor - awor" which mean to mix liberally.

29th April 2005, 10:36 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,348	Another Alternative Most Honored , I enter this discussion as a member , not as a staff member . I have a suggestion and please do not take insult from it I beg of you . Rather than Nechesh investing possibly years learning the art of divination why not find someone to accept this million dollar challenge : http://www.randi.org/research/index.html I assure you this is not a joke , it is a serious effort to discover if powers as you claim do indeed exist . Most respectfully submitted . Rick EEWRS

30th April 2005, 02:32 AM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,348	Thanks Blu We need more smiles in our Keris discussions !!

29th April 2005, 10:45 PM	#2
Kiai Carita Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 91	Rick thakn you for your link to the million dollar challenge. I have not claimed any supernatural powers of the keris itself but I have claimed that the Merpati Putih school of martial arts can teach how to see with every cell of your body. The school's headquarters is in Yogyakarta and I would be happy to take you there and ask to see a demonstration. I would also be happy to share the million dollars with you. Salam Keris

29th April 2005, 10:51 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,348	Most Honored , I only bring the challenge forth to try to settle the question at hand . I was not referring to the keris ; I was referring to the act of seeing with every cell of one's body . Possibly you can contact the school to see if they have any interest . Even if they eschew the cash award it could be put to good use for any charity or school endeavor in Jawa . Now I will step out of this discussion . Thank you .

29th April 2005, 10:56 PM	#4
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Kiai, you write english exceptionally well, but i get the feeling you either are nt understanding my words or you are making assumption to what i am saying without really reading my posts. I am certainly NOT "slagging off" the mystical powers of the empu. However, even the most astute empu would have great difficulty locating pieces of nickelous meteorite that don't exist. Angain i must state what a rare occurance such a meteorite is and to hit such a small island in SEA with all that surrounding sea. I am not asking you for evidence to prove the mystical powers of the empu. Your assumption that i know nothing of such powers because i am from a different culture than yours borders on racism itself. My life has been steeped in mystical practice from many different cultures for the past 25 yrs. or more. I do, however, appreciate your suggestions and will look further into 'gerak nurani' though i hardly need to in order to understand and appreciate the powers of the ancient empu.

29th April 2005, 11:16 PM	#5
Kiai Carita Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 91	Dear Nechesh, I am glad to hear you are not slagging off the old Mpu. However if you think of the meteorite that have been showering earth since the beginning of time then there must be meteorite in rivers where the surface soil is brought by the waters. If only one gramme of meteorite fell on Java every year since the beginning of time how many tonnes of the stuff would be there when the Mpu's began to take center stage in the 10'th century? You will not need years to be able to practise 'gerak nurani'. You only need a teacher to show you how and in ten minutes you will be able to do it. Find your lost keyes and stuff like that. To get really sensitive however you need longer. ... Also not only nickel containing meteorite can be used as pamor. The idea of nickel is new in kerisology, introduced by the Dutch of the old scientific school. The Javanese never knew the Western metalurgy and they had dozens of names for iron. Salam Keris

30th April 2005, 01:43 AM	#6
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Interesting discussion, Gentlemen. I haven't read a series of posts as well written as Kiai Carita's for a while. Thank you and welcome to the forum, Kiai Carita. What I'm going to write is not directly linked to the discussion above, but just some thoughts that arose while reading the posts. While I am not a believer of supernatural or paranormal activities/powers, I do see the point that the keris in totality is anchored in more than the material world. And it is up to the individual how they want to approach the keris. So I would say Nechesh and Kiai Carita are on different sides of the same coin, and finding it difficult to see face-to-face. But that is not to say anyone is right or wrong. The world is made up of all views, just like in order to appreciate the keris, one must look at all physical angles, and then the non-physical aspects too. Some of us are 'irreconciliably' anchored in one aspect, but that is alright. Its our karma and dharma. I think it is as important to consider how the keris is treated and perceived, as it is to look at what it is physically. The keris is a different thing as seen by different eyes, from the local Southeast Asians to the Westerners who 'veni, vidi, vici' centuries past and brought back a whole bunch of kerises to Europe (in a certain way, a fortunate outcome of an unhappy past because some of the most beautiful kerises got preserved immaculately). Anyway, in totality, apart from the physical attributes and composition that make a keris beautiful and/or lethal, the keris has an aspect of mysticism and esoterism that is not so readily shared, understood or seen. However, just because it cannot be seen or proven does not mean it is not there (or there, for that matter). In fact, it may have never been meant to be proven. But not able to prove something does not make the thing less real. An idea/concept/story does not need to be proven. They are. (Well, if someone wants to find the exact origins, what happened to who, why the idea came up, produce evidence, etc, he could do that, but that's not the point). Just as some of these things run on 'faith', they also run on 'views'. As we may have observed, sometimes, when enough people subscribes to a view, it becomes the 'truth'. And also, sometimes, things we cannot understand or prove is just something we cannot understand or prove. e.g. there is this man in China who can generate so much heat from his hands that he can cook a fish just holding on to it. There's this Korean master who could hold a spoonful of molten lead in his mouth. I have personally experienced a Tai Chi master who can control electricity from a live wire and allow small 'hair-raising' current to pass on to people holding onto his bare hands (in fact he could vary the current passing through). So maybe it is not too difficult to imagine people who are attuned to finding things (for whatever reasons unexplained, but not necessary paranormal/supernatural). Hey we have Jedi knights who can see into the future with the aid of the 'Force', right? Ok, I think my thoughts are not coming together in a disciplined manner, so I better stop this verbal diarrhea.

30th April 2005, 02:18 AM	#7
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	I just read the other thread started by Vinny and regrets that it came to a rather unhappy ending. But anyway, lets not get red-faced and boiling when discussing keris. I think we read too much into words sometimes (me included), and our emotions inserts 'extra' meaning/insinuation to those words that did not intend to convey those meaning/insinuation. Studying or collecting keris is about patience and acceptance of diversity (from ideas, context to keris dress and dapur, etc). Lets strive towards these qualities. Free smiles for everyone today!!!!!!!!!!

3rd May 2005, 05:43 AM	#10
Boedhi Adhitya Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 103	Greetings... I would like to share some of my thought about this interesting topic. Thought i'm new to this forum, but i considered myself not new to keris (hopefully ) and have some first-hand-experience, because, lucky me , i live in Yogyakarta. 1. Why pamor is almost always considered as made from meteorite, especially by the Javanese ? IMHO, it's connected to the making process of the keris itself. While the empu make the keris, he (or she) is considered to act as a priest who marrying the heaven (the meteorite) and the earth (the iron). When the making is done, the picture of pamor on the blade is considered as the heaven's fate for the owner of the keris, so it's very important. If it's not made from meteorite (which is, sad to say, quite often), the sense of "heaven's fate" will be diminished. So, for the Javanese, the pamor is almost always considered as made of meteorite, as it act as the heavens, but for those who studied the keris (even if he is Javanese), it'sn't always meteorite. For other cultures, "the act of marrying heaven and earth" by the bladesmith might not exist, so the meteorite used in making the blade only considered as the add of beauty and rarity, plus some mystic power, of course But it's never considered as the heaven's fate for the owner. 2. It's correct that not all the meteorite could be used to make the keris. I had asked this question to Empu Djeno (long before I join this forum off course, not when one of us ask about it ) the last living empu decendant who still make keris in Yogyakarta. He told me once he received order to make a keris from Belgian, who bring his own meteorite. But this meteorite can't stand the forging process. Prambanan meteorite is rich in iron and other metal, which resemble a chunk of metal than a pieces of stone. I've handle one of these which is belongs to Karaton of Yogyakarta for exhibition. 3. Only nem-neman keris made of Prambanan meteorite. For those who want authentic meteorite on it's blade, just run for the nem-neman (young) keris which is made when PB IX or X reigned in Surakarta, or HB VII - VIII reigned in Yogyakarta. Just be carefull, the keris maker in Madura is able today to make the keris almost identically the same as those nem-neman. the pamor is made from nickelous iron (perhaps they read this forum also ) Even Javanesse keris experts have difficulties to identify them. But for those who love the old ones, just relax, The Madura's maker never be able to copy them 4. To identify the material used for pamor by see or touch it is tricky for those who never seen different keris more than 5 a day for a month, even ones who had the chance may still make a mistakes. The elders in Java always said the best way to study keris is to look at it as much as you can get, the more the better, the best if the keris from the first-class quality. The things I can tell you, the meteorite pamor gives more color gradations/hue. It's dark gray, gray, white, and shining metallic-white,(etched or not) all in one. the best way to see it is under the sun ray. The ray from any artificial source will hardly reveal it. it's also sharp to the touch. The prambanan pamor has distinct characteristic, it's exhibit metallic-white and yellowish color. The madura's pamors, usually have pure (and boring) metallic white, not too sharp to the touch. But for the high-quality ones, they add some impurities, so it's more difficult for us to identify. The pamor made from lower grade iron, perhaps high in phosphorus, have a chalk-like dull white color, not sharp to the touch and usually do not stand etching. 5. In the ancient times, there were so many empu, so many style. They made so many kerises, from low grade quality to the high ones. The high ones, were only made by the court's empus. Why ? Because the court had the power to ask best empu in their region to work for them, had the money to bring the best material existed, and the most important, they kept the best work of the earlier empu, so the later, could learn and perfected the work of the earlier, something not possible for the empu outside the court. From my experiences, the pamor of good quality old kerises usually exhibit the characteristic of meteoric pamor (like prambanan ones, minus the yellowish hue), so I think it's save for me to say that it's made of meteorite. If it isn't, the empus might have developed a way to purify nickelous (or titanium, according to Arumbinang research) ore. I do admit (and hoping) that scientific research on keris metallurgy must be carried over, because so many questions arise around it. One more thing, it was quite usual for empus to mix several kind of iron and even pamor materials. Because "pamor" word, in Javanese language, came from the word "wor - awor" which mean to mix liberally.