How old is the Kora, and from where does it origin?

Berkley · 11th May 2009, 03:51 AM

Plate 41 in Rawson depicts two "Koras with sheaths covered with velvet; chapes and lockets of pierced and chased silver. From the collection of King Frederick VI. National Museum, Copenhagen".
This image from John Powell shows a much more utilitarian version:

sirupate · 11th May 2009, 08:31 AM

Hello Denee, do you still have access to those photo's? as I was speaking to a friend of mine, who has travelled extensively in Tibet, and he has not seen any Kora/khunda being used there at all, only the traditional Tibetan swords and knives.

Nice picture Berkley, that appears to be a wooden handle on the khunda? The initial problem regarding Rawson works, appears to be no Nepalese input on the khunda.

Berkley · 11th May 2009, 12:42 PM

The grip is leather wrapped ferrous metal.
My reference to Rawson was for the purpose of directing the reader to his photographs, which speak for themselves - the proverbial 1000 words, as it were, in neither Nepali nor English.

sirupate · 11th May 2009, 02:23 PM

Thanks for the answer on the handle Berkley, it looks to have a great grip.

dennee · 12th May 2009, 04:33 AM

Four photos of Cham dancers at Pelkhor Choide monastery, Gyantse, Tibet, 1940s. The first is a photo from late 1942 taken by Brooke Dolan and Ilya Tolstoy and published in Rosemary Jones Tung's "A Portrait of Lost Tibet." The rest are from the late 1940s, taken by Pietro Francesco Mele and published in his book, "Tibet."

You'll notice that the ends of the khuda are straight or concave, and the grips are sometimes very simple, with no pommel.

In all the books I have read, I have never seen a reference to the use of khuda in Tibet except these photos. Gyantse is in the south, not a great distance to get khuda in trade or to have retained them from the Gorkha invasions in the 1790s and 1850s. Monasteries retained weapons in their protector chapels, and this weapon may have appealed for use in dances as suitably otherworldly for its exotic form.

Gonzalo G · 12th May 2009, 07:08 AM

Thank YOU, Norman, for sharing your pieces and for your interesting points of view.

Berk, very good material! I am always in a need of documental sources. Yes, I know there are some kora scabbards, but my point is if the kora was carried into battle with its scabbard or on the hands of the gorkha. I recall to have read somewere that koras were carried on hand into battle, but I have to check this source, and anyway I have not any certainty about the scientific grounds on which this statement was made. Anyway, these scabbards were in fact scabbards to carry the kora into battle, or only a kind of storage cases? Did this scabbards belong to sacrificial or to fighting koras? Or to both? There are precedents of swords carried into battle on hand, and I ignore if there are sources clearing this point.

Dennee, nobody attributed the koras to the Tibet, but to what it seems the tibetan group which invaded Nepal from a migration originated maybe in Central or East Asia, and I mean the gorkhas. I know this is an uncharted teritory. The gap in the occidental documental sources you mentioned before is a proof that there is much to discover about this migrations and about the koras. For this reason, we can only hypothetize based in the information available. The fact is that the kora is intimately associated to the gorkha and, who they were? Where did this group originated? Did they carried the kora at their arrival to Nepal? I am afraid that we do not have definitive answers based on ultimate scientific evidence. Intercourses among India, Nepal and the Tibet are a fact. But I wonder if the fact that the kora are used in chamanic rites, and this photos you provided are a proof of it, no matter there are no books in the occident dedicated to this subject, is a cricunstantial proof that the kora was in fact an old tibetan (in the ethnic, not the geographical sense) weapon. You know, those people taked very seriously their rites, and there are many precedents of very old and otherwise obsolete weapons from some ethnic gropus, only kept by the chamans or priests to be used on their rites. I think I recall bronze weapons used by roman and egiptian priests (and I believe judean also), in their ritual sacrifices, when iron or steel weapons already have been substituted the bronze ones. Even used flint knives instead, in other ethnic groups.

We need first hand good sources from many countries, since the languaje is a barrier and there are not many nations represented here. And also, we need some well based knowledge on the archaeology and history on many areas not well known for the occidental scientific. For example, I have given sources to proof that not only europeans did in fact forged wootz, but also that in Spain wootz was imported and forged well into mid 19th Century, and my source was unknown only because it came from books written by spanish specialist in castilian languaje and published in 1850. So, there is a problem, and a big one, of lack of information, or from lack of information from available sources in an available languaje for the reader. This absence is not proof of any argument, but of the fact that we don´t have information. The important thing is to have a scientific attitude, recognizing what is a fact based on proof, and what is a probability based on reason, circunstantial facts, logic and so on, and finally, what is only speculation originated in cultural, phsycological, ideological or personal bias or interests. And when only testimonies are given as proof, keeping a healthy skepticism, since even actual archaeologic discoveries have given proof that the classic graeco-roman historians lied many times, were wrong or imprecise, based on the same bias or interests.
Regards

Gonzalo

sirupate · 12th May 2009, 03:29 PM

Dennee, many thanks for posting the pictures of the khuda, and for your explanation, they are certainley in the style of fighting khuda rather than sacrificial. They may well have got there not only through war, but through cultural exchange, which happened from time to time between Tibet and Nepal.

fearn · 12th May 2009, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Dennee, nobody attributed the koras to the Tibet, but to what it seems the tibetan group which invaded Nepal from a migration originated maybe in Central or East Asia, and I mean the gorkhas. I know this is an uncharted teritory. The gap in the occidental documental sources you mentioned before is a proof that there is much to discover about this migrations and about the koras. For this reason, we can only hypothetize based in the information available. The fact is that the kora is intimately associated to the gorkha and, who they were? Where did this group originated? Did they carried the kora at their arrival to Nepal?

Hi Gonzalo,

I was recently re-reading Egerton's Indian and Oriental Arms and Armour and he made an interesting distinction. He attributed the kukri to the Gorkhas, and the kora to the "Nepali people." It's an interesting book, and while he's far from a perfect source, he was writing during the colonial time, when the Brits were dealing with the various tribes and kingdoms of India and the Himalayas.

My question is, does this remark make sense? I know that Nepal is a multi-ethnic kingdom, but I'm still not sure whether it's as strongly tied to the Gorkhas as you state. Is that just my confusion?

Best,

F

12th May 2009, 04:33 AM	#5
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	Four photos of Cham dancers at Pelkhor Choide monastery, Gyantse, Tibet, 1940s. The first is a photo from late 1942 taken by Brooke Dolan and Ilya Tolstoy and published in Rosemary Jones Tung's "A Portrait of Lost Tibet." The rest are from the late 1940s, taken by Pietro Francesco Mele and published in his book, "Tibet." You'll notice that the ends of the khuda are straight or concave, and the grips are sometimes very simple, with no pommel. In all the books I have read, I have never seen a reference to the use of khuda in Tibet except these photos. Gyantse is in the south, not a great distance to get khuda in trade or to have retained them from the Gorkha invasions in the 1790s and 1850s. Monasteries retained weapons in their protector chapels, and this weapon may have appealed for use in dances as suitably otherworldly for its exotic form. Attached Images

11th May 2009, 03:51 AM	#1
Berkley Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, Texas USA Posts: 257	Plate 41 in Rawson depicts two "Koras with sheaths covered with velvet; chapes and lockets of pierced and chased silver. From the collection of King Frederick VI. National Museum, Copenhagen". This image from John Powell shows a much more utilitarian version:

11th May 2009, 08:31 AM	#2
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Hello Denee, do you still have access to those photo's? as I was speaking to a friend of mine, who has travelled extensively in Tibet, and he has not seen any Kora/khunda being used there at all, only the traditional Tibetan swords and knives. Nice picture Berkley, that appears to be a wooden handle on the khunda? The initial problem regarding Rawson works, appears to be no Nepalese input on the khunda.

11th May 2009, 12:42 PM	#3
Berkley Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, Texas USA Posts: 257	The grip is leather wrapped ferrous metal. My reference to Rawson was for the purpose of directing the reader to his photographs, which speak for themselves - the proverbial 1000 words, as it were, in neither Nepali nor English.

11th May 2009, 02:23 PM	#4
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Thanks for the answer on the handle Berkley, it looks to have a great grip.

12th May 2009, 07:08 AM	#6
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Thank YOU, Norman, for sharing your pieces and for your interesting points of view. Berk, very good material! I am always in a need of documental sources. Yes, I know there are some kora scabbards, but my point is if the kora was carried into battle with its scabbard or on the hands of the gorkha. I recall to have read somewere that koras were carried on hand into battle, but I have to check this source, and anyway I have not any certainty about the scientific grounds on which this statement was made. Anyway, these scabbards were in fact scabbards to carry the kora into battle, or only a kind of storage cases? Did this scabbards belong to sacrificial or to fighting koras? Or to both? There are precedents of swords carried into battle on hand, and I ignore if there are sources clearing this point. Dennee, nobody attributed the koras to the Tibet, but to what it seems the tibetan group which invaded Nepal from a migration originated maybe in Central or East Asia, and I mean the gorkhas. I know this is an uncharted teritory. The gap in the occidental documental sources you mentioned before is a proof that there is much to discover about this migrations and about the koras. For this reason, we can only hypothetize based in the information available. The fact is that the kora is intimately associated to the gorkha and, who they were? Where did this group originated? Did they carried the kora at their arrival to Nepal? I am afraid that we do not have definitive answers based on ultimate scientific evidence. Intercourses among India, Nepal and the Tibet are a fact. But I wonder if the fact that the kora are used in chamanic rites, and this photos you provided are a proof of it, no matter there are no books in the occident dedicated to this subject, is a cricunstantial proof that the kora was in fact an old tibetan (in the ethnic, not the geographical sense) weapon. You know, those people taked very seriously their rites, and there are many precedents of very old and otherwise obsolete weapons from some ethnic gropus, only kept by the chamans or priests to be used on their rites. I think I recall bronze weapons used by roman and egiptian priests (and I believe judean also), in their ritual sacrifices, when iron or steel weapons already have been substituted the bronze ones. Even used flint knives instead, in other ethnic groups. We need first hand good sources from many countries, since the languaje is a barrier and there are not many nations represented here. And also, we need some well based knowledge on the archaeology and history on many areas not well known for the occidental scientific. For example, I have given sources to proof that not only europeans did in fact forged wootz, but also that in Spain wootz was imported and forged well into mid 19th Century, and my source was unknown only because it came from books written by spanish specialist in castilian languaje and published in 1850. So, there is a problem, and a big one, of lack of information, or from lack of information from available sources in an available languaje for the reader. This absence is not proof of any argument, but of the fact that we don´t have information. The important thing is to have a scientific attitude, recognizing what is a fact based on proof, and what is a probability based on reason, circunstantial facts, logic and so on, and finally, what is only speculation originated in cultural, phsycological, ideological or personal bias or interests. And when only testimonies are given as proof, keeping a healthy skepticism, since even actual archaeologic discoveries have given proof that the classic graeco-roman historians lied many times, were wrong or imprecise, based on the same bias or interests. Regards Gonzalo

12th May 2009, 03:29 PM	#7
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Dennee, many thanks for posting the pictures of the khuda, and for your explanation, they are certainley in the style of fighting khuda rather than sacrificial. They may well have got there not only through war, but through cultural exchange, which happened from time to time between Tibet and Nepal.