A mysterious Transylvanian sword : a Sino-Japanese influence possible ?

Radu Transylvanicus · 29th April 2005, 06:33 AM

Again, unfortunatelly, that is the only photo I have and you see everything there is to it... wish I had pictures of the blade further but not so far ... Is there a chance anyone could dig for another catalog of Dresden Historical Museum (they made quite a few types and editions, I have another one on their firearms...) or maybe someone with a large library, someone in Europe can request another image of it, someone from the Krakow museum for example,

with ties ....
Again the museum is: Staatliche Kunstsammlungen Dresden and the section of the establishment where the sword resides is : Der Rüstkammer (The Armoury)... they also have a Jagereikammer (The Hunting Chamber) and a Harnischkammer (The Equine Hall). Here is a link of the on-line Rüstkammer exponates but unfortunatelly the sword is not one of them so far but it has a lot of interesting things, even a keris...
After clicking the link, look for the last icon on the first row to get to you the Armoury (Rüstkammer) image gallery:
http://bildarchiv.skd-dresden.de/skddb/Start.jsp

If I could only see the blade we might even go as far as saying that it was inspired by a dha , wouldn't that be something ?

Mark · 29th April 2005, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

If I could only see the blade we might even go as far as saying that it was inspired by a dha , wouldn't that be something ?

Thinking about it, that might not be such an outlandish idea. The Kingdom of Siam was sending emissaries to the court of Louis XIV, and eventually had an embassar. At the same time, re-fitted (and even non-refitted) Japanese swords were common as royal accessories in Siam. It is not out of the question that among gifts sent to Louie Louie (ohh, oohh, we got to go ....) were one or more Japanese-style swords. Perhaps this armorer saw one, or whoever commissioned it saw one.

As an interesting side-note, the King of Siam gave a Japanese style sword to the U.S. President (I forget who), which is not on display in a corner or the Smithsonian Museum of American History. I will see if I can find a picture on the internet, and if not I'll try and get a photo. It has a beautiful watered steel blade.

Later ...

I remembered that Dan had posted pictures of the "samurai" Siamese court swords on the old forum. Note the similarity in the handles.

The thread is here

Radu Transylvanicus · 30th April 2005, 10:21 AM

WOLVIEX: Jak się masz, drogi bracie? Dołącz do nas, potrzebuję cię ! Dont answer in Polish !

tom hyle · 30th April 2005, 11:40 AM

By George, I think Mark may have it! How very interesting. The shape of this handle, while similar to old European depictions of Japanese swords, is notably different from that of real Japanese swords (not flat, swelled-ended), and is however similar to these dhatanas (

) and to dha in general. Could Europe have conflated two E Asian swords, especially two that are similar and even seem to have blended within that Asian sphere? Doesn't this resemble Burton's illustration of a Japanese sword?

wolviex · 30th April 2005, 01:30 PM

Radu!

Sorry for being quiet for so long but I was very busy, and still I am.

Now is the weekend. So I'm out of work and decided to idle the time away

I think I can find something about Dresden museum in my bookshelf at work - will see, but you will have to wait till Monday.

BEAUTIFUL AND OUTSTANDING WEAPON. You've got already a lot information plus a trace from Mark who is probably nearest to the truth at the moment. First of all I would search for more informations about our Transilvanian armourer, to answer few basic questions: why he has made such sword, and for whom. Without that, and without checking documents in archives we can imagine many different things without end. Does he travelled to the far away countries, does he knew the far away cultures, maybe someone gave him a project of such sword to make? Questions questions.... The floral pattern - do we have other examples of such beautiful depicting elsewhere? Are this European or Eastern flowers? This are the questions which will bring us closer to the truth. How did it found itself in Dresden, by the way? In few years later Dresden became "second capital" of Poland, when Elector of Saxony was elected as the King of Poland - Augustus II. But I think this has nothing to do with this sword anyway

One remark. The handle made of rows of stones reminds me some European (Italian?) daggers of this period. Maybe it's wrong direction, but it's good to consider every possible way.

Regards!

tom hyle · 30th April 2005, 01:35 PM

I'm certainly no flower botanist, but every aspect of the decoration and production seems European to me. I'm guessing there's a full length peined tang. Are those bands of pottery in the handle? The flowers on them are of an European folk style art, while those on the guard are in the overculture style. An interesting combination. The transverse grindlines obscured by soft buffing seem European?

fearn · 30th April 2005, 01:47 PM

Hi Wolviex,

Speaking as a botanist, I doubt you're not going to get much clue from the flowers. The flowers on the guard (left to right) could be something in the poppy or barberry family, something in the sunflower family (such as a chrysanthemum) and again something in the poppy or barberry family. The leaves could be chrysanthemum, fern, or whatever. The flowers on the handle are essentially abstract designs.

Basically, my first guess is that we have someone who's botanically illiterate looking at illustrations in an art book and copying them onto the guard and hilt in a pleasing pattern. I have nothing against that, of course (it's art!), but it's useless as a clue. The reason is that the sunflower family is one of the three biggest plant families in the world, and they grow on every landmass north of Antartica (think dandelions--actually, they're probably around MacMurdo Station, too). Poppy relatives and barberries are found throughout the northern hemisphere, and certainly both are in gardens throughout Asia and Europe. Here I'm assuming that the numbers of petals, and the shape of the center of the flower, are meaningful. They could just as easily be sloppiness on the part of the artist. For instance, all of these could be someone's "Hollywood treatment" of roses.

Fundamentally, most of the same plant families occur in northern Asia (China, Korea, Japan), Europe, and north America. A good clue would be a well executed, recognizable flower that's indigenous to some area, or symbolically meaningful in an area (think lotus or rose, for instance), or something tropical (like a ginger) that would provide a clue to tropical SE Asia (or that someone saw a picture of said plant

).

Pretty blade, though.

Fearn

wolviex · 30th April 2005, 02:02 PM

Hi Fearn

Thank you for this explanation, now we can cross my flower question out of list. Actually, I was just shooting with questions, while not every of them will be important, thought. But, as you wrote: "someone could copy them" without any knowledge about botany (I hope I didn't get you wrong), so the question is, from where? (book, painting, graphic, nature?). I'm historian, but art historians sometimes are looking amongst the graphics for the references to their subject, like scetches, drawings etc. I know that Radu, nowliving in America, may have some problems with looking for such an answer. Maybe it's not most important. I thing the more important is knowledge about maker - and simple question why he decided to make something unusual like this.

Sorry for questioning

29th April 2005, 06:33 AM	#1
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Again, unfortunatelly, that is the only photo I have and you see everything there is to it... wish I had pictures of the blade further but not so far ... Is there a chance anyone could dig for another catalog of Dresden Historical Museum (they made quite a few types and editions, I have another one on their firearms...) or maybe someone with a large library, someone in Europe can request another image of it, someone from the Krakow museum for example, with ties .... Again the museum is: Staatliche Kunstsammlungen Dresden and the section of the establishment where the sword resides is : Der Rüstkammer (The Armoury)... they also have a Jagereikammer (The Hunting Chamber) and a Harnischkammer (The Equine Hall). Here is a link of the on-line Rüstkammer exponates but unfortunatelly the sword is not one of them so far but it has a lot of interesting things, even a keris... After clicking the link, look for the last icon on the first row to get to you the Armoury (Rüstkammer) image gallery: http://bildarchiv.skd-dresden.de/skddb/Start.jsp If I could only see the blade we might even go as far as saying that it was inspired by a *dha* , wouldn't that be something ? Last edited by Radu Transylvanicus; 29th April 2005 at 10:07 AM.

30th April 2005, 11:40 AM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Go Mark! By George, I think Mark may have it! How very interesting. The shape of this handle, while similar to old European depictions of Japanese swords, is notably different from that of real Japanese swords (not flat, swelled-ended), and is however similar to these dhatanas ( ) and to dha in general. Could Europe have conflated two E Asian swords, especially two that are similar and even seem to have blended within that Asian sphere? Doesn't this resemble Burton's illustration of a Japanese sword?

30th April 2005, 01:35 PM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I'm certainly no flower botanist, but every aspect of the decoration and production seems European to me. I'm guessing there's a full length peined tang. Are those bands of pottery in the handle? The flowers on them are of an European folk style art, while those on the guard are in the overculture style. An interesting combination. The transverse grindlines obscured by soft buffing seem European? Last edited by tom hyle; 30th April 2005 at 05:03 PM.

30th April 2005, 10:21 AM	#3
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	WOLVIEX: Jak się masz, drogi bracie? Dołącz do nas, potrzebuję cię ! Dont answer in Polish !

30th April 2005, 01:30 PM	#5
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Radu! Sorry for being quiet for so long but I was very busy, and still I am. Now is the weekend. So I'm out of work and decided to idle the time away I think I can find something about Dresden museum in my bookshelf at work - will see, but you will have to wait till Monday. BEAUTIFUL AND OUTSTANDING WEAPON. You've got already a lot information plus a trace from Mark who is probably nearest to the truth at the moment. First of all I would search for more informations about our Transilvanian armourer, to answer few basic questions: why he has made such sword, and for whom. Without that, and without checking documents in archives we can imagine many different things without end. Does he travelled to the far away countries, does he knew the far away cultures, maybe someone gave him a project of such sword to make? Questions questions.... The floral pattern - do we have other examples of such beautiful depicting elsewhere? Are this European or Eastern flowers? This are the questions which will bring us closer to the truth. How did it found itself in Dresden, by the way? In few years later Dresden became "second capital" of Poland, when Elector of Saxony was elected as the King of Poland - Augustus II. But I think this has nothing to do with this sword anyway One remark. The handle made of rows of stones reminds me some European (Italian?) daggers of this period. Maybe it's wrong direction, but it's good to consider every possible way. Regards!

30th April 2005, 01:47 PM	#7
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Wolviex, Speaking as a botanist, I doubt you're not going to get much clue from the flowers. The flowers on the guard (left to right) could be something in the poppy or barberry family, something in the sunflower family (such as a chrysanthemum) and again something in the poppy or barberry family. The leaves could be chrysanthemum, fern, or whatever. The flowers on the handle are essentially abstract designs. Basically, my first guess is that we have someone who's botanically illiterate looking at illustrations in an art book and copying them onto the guard and hilt in a pleasing pattern. I have nothing against that, of course (it's art!), but it's useless as a clue. The reason is that the sunflower family is one of the three biggest plant families in the world, and they grow on every landmass north of Antartica (think dandelions--actually, they're probably around MacMurdo Station, too). Poppy relatives and barberries are found throughout the northern hemisphere, and certainly both are in gardens throughout Asia and Europe. Here I'm assuming that the numbers of petals, and the shape of the center of the flower, are meaningful. They could just as easily be sloppiness on the part of the artist. For instance, all of these could be someone's "Hollywood treatment" of roses. Fundamentally, most of the same plant families occur in northern Asia (China, Korea, Japan), Europe, and north America. A good clue would be a well executed, recognizable flower that's indigenous to some area, or symbolically meaningful in an area (think lotus or rose, for instance), or something tropical (like a ginger) that would provide a clue to tropical SE Asia (or that someone saw a picture of said plant ). Pretty blade, though. Fearn

30th April 2005, 02:02 PM	#8
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Hi Fearn Thank you for this explanation, now we can cross my flower question out of list. Actually, I was just shooting with questions, while not every of them will be important, thought. But, as you wrote: "someone could copy them" without any knowledge about botany (I hope I didn't get you wrong), so the question is, from where? (book, painting, graphic, nature?). I'm historian, but art historians sometimes are looking amongst the graphics for the references to their subject, like scetches, drawings etc. I know that Radu, nowliving in America, may have some problems with looking for such an answer. Maybe it's not most important. I thing the more important is knowledge about maker - and simple question why he decided to make something unusual like this. Sorry for questioning