Manual del Baratero - A Review

tom hyle · 29th April 2005, 05:45 AM

Thanks. What would you estimate the period to be on that piece? It seems like it might tie in with known art movements; Egyptophilism or whatever it's called; I know that seems to go through modern Europe and N America in waves, from time to time. The images don't seem to be drawn straight from heiroglyphics, at least not entirely, but to be referential of them, and perhaps of other "ethnic" ie antiquitous and/or non-European symbols? Primitivism? Art movements are one of those things where the words in the name don't mean what the words mean, and that always confuses me when the humans do that..........it has something, perhaps, to do with social institutions........confusing to us Martians

This seems like an European art movement I've seen. It reminds of deco, but is this knife older than that?.......a possible cross-reference, anyway.

Chris Evans · 29th April 2005, 06:36 AM

Hi Tom,

The rule of thumb for dating navajas, assuming that they are fitted with a spine spring, is by the locking mechanism.

Post 1900: External sheet metal spine spring, fitted with a release lever as per my earlier post.

Circa 1865-1900: Ring release and spring housed within the handle as per my earlier post.

Circa 1815-1865 Spring housed within the handle and no release mechanism (pick-lock)

Pre 1815: The spine spring is screwed to the back of the handle and no release mechanism (pick-lock) as in this picture.

The importation of French navajas into Spain commenced in earnest around 1850 and fell away after 1870. Given that that navaja has a ring release and a modified lock for the Spanish market, its date of manufacture was probably around 1865-70, maybe even a little later.

I do not know if these Spanish style navajas were sold in countries other than Spain. If they were, then it could have been made as late as 1890 or thereabouts. The Spanish authority Forton, simply dates similar ones as from the "late 19th century".

Cheers
Chris

Frank · 30th April 2005, 12:17 PM

Chris

Thanks for that explanation of the PS. I have seen the reference to it many times but never understood what it menas.

I am surprised that nobody woke up that it could get you killed! I have been reading about the MdB on teh net for some years and nobody seemed to pick up on that. . I have seen that move described in other knife fighting books too. Can't remeber which but I have seen it. Makes one wonder doesn't it.

Now here is a question for you. Were ANY of the navajas suitable for fighting. From what I can see in Fortons books, more than half did not even have a lock.

Best wishes
Frank

tom hyle · 30th April 2005, 12:38 PM

The idea of most dropped attacks is that they are done suddenly, taking the opponant by surprise and going under his guard by putting you suddenly below where he thinks you are. There are no magic bullets in hand to hand combat; instantaneity of deadliness is about 90% of it (and I'm leaving asid massed combat, which we aren't discussing and where grouping and communication are probably #1) and is much more important than skill, technique, etc. It's all about speed and anticipation (ESP helps). In other words, this is a trick. The more any such is seen, taught, practiced, and practiced against, the less use it becomes, of course. I remember in SCA heavy weapons combat a trick that only works on a hard smooth floor (or sometimes grass under the right conditions, but not so reliably.....) if you have hard, well-padded knee armour; you charge the opponant head-on, seeming to bull in like an unskilled fool, but at the last instant drop to your knees, sliding in beneath his guard, and strike. It is extremely effective against most people who haven't seen it, because it is unexpected and shifts the attack to a direction from which no attack was thought possible. the technique discussed is rather similar. The idea of the instant kill is a weakness of many sport/training fighting methods. It may be neccessary to them, but it is important for real fighters to train in such things as slide up on your knees then roll away and back to your feet, etc. The move discussed here seems eminently liable to such a recovery that uses gravity/momentum to continue the movement into a roll to the side. Many moves that "kill" an opponant in sport/practice leave you open should he, as we actual animals tend to do, rudely refrain from dying instantly and quietly. I also note a similarity to Spainish bullfighting, though, and to the idea of the perfect thrust, and the perfect understanding and control of the bull, and wherein the armpit of the killer ends up and even comes to rest directly before the point of the weapon of the victim as a very deliberate display that is considered of surpassing meaning and beauty by the afficionadi.
It is sometimes important to remember, too, in these matters, that though such a thing as fear of Death may seem a constant it is actually a cultural construct in some degree, and many cultures have not shared it in anything like the degree it is seen in modern/industrial culture. I recently heard a great saying; I can't remember it precisely, but along the lines of "When we learn to die, then we are able to live free." Killing the enemy, living and dying honorably/morally, and even the aesthetic beauty of movements and situations can all exceed the desire to continue living within traditional combat.
A further note on the soft pass (? low pass?) is that it not only puts you lower than expected, but "ups" your reach, allowing you to strike when the opponant thought he was out of range. There is a very similar extension thrust with a longspear (pike) that can be very effective. The best, most practiced, and stretchiest spearmen can get quite a notable range boost from it.
I'll also add that many fighting styles teach one how to fight from the ground; some even favour it, and styles that lack this typically find it hard to counter, mistaking the ground for a position of weakness; thinking only the feet can successfully interface with it or something; another limitting paradigm whose.....limitations can really come out in a fight.

Chris Evans · 1st May 2005, 11:24 AM

Hi,

Tom,

Fair comment - You draw attention to something that should be a mandatory recitation by all students of martial arts, be it Eastern or Western; Namely, that even the most seemingly devastating attack may not be instantly disabling, giving ample opportunity to the opponent to counter-strike. In the long history of dueling, there have been numerous examples of someone scoring a hit, thinking that the fight was over, only to receive an unexpected counter hit with grievous consequences.

Knives lacking a reach advantage bring both parties extremely close and expose the wielder to counter hits far more than swords do; This has to be kept in mind when choosing tactics.

Another point (no pun intended) is that the PS is infrequently performed with modern fencing swords, because they move too fast, yet it is worth remembering that knives are faster again, able to change direction even more quickly.

Frank,

Many of the 6"-9" bladed navajas that had a lock were capable weapons, but only once they were opened. Most were slow and clumsy in this respect, but there were a few notable exceptions. I have an old 10" bladed navaja, made in the French manner with a "teat" lock (as still found on Italian stilettos) the massive blade of which can be flung open like any modern tactical folder (see picture). It is very weak at the hinge but it can be deployed mighty fast - A shorter bladed version would have been rather formidable. Of course, for this very reason, it would have been banned in most Spanish jurisdictions, much in the manner that automatic switchblades tend to attract the full wrath of the law in modern times.

Much more research is needed before we can say with certainty just how common was the violent usage of navajas. There is some rather compelling evidence in Forton's works that a most attacks were committed with weapons other than navajas. Another factor to keep in mind is that in the old days, lacking forensic capabilities, the authorities could not easily disprove a confession in which the guilty party admitted to having carved up someone with a navaja (more or less legal) as opposed to the real weapon used having been a dagger or knife (highly illegal), rapidly drawn from concealment.

Personally, after having examined quite a number of antiques, I am of the opinion that actual fighting with navajas must have been far less frequent than alleged these days and when it did occur, it was in ritualized dueling that seldom went the distance and during which only easily parried sweeping cuts were being traded (most navajas did not have a lock and this made the more lethal thrust very risky).

Cheers
Chris

Frank · 6th May 2005, 05:27 AM

Chris,

In Fortons Navaja Antigua page 258 there is a navaja described as VIROLA GIRATORIA. My Spanish helper has not been able to translatte this for me. Does not seem to have a lock of any kind. What is this navaja.

Why has this book not ben translated? I find it very frustrating and hard to understand. Such a good book full of info and nobody has bothered with it. Cant believe it.

Best Wishes
Frank

Chris Evans · 6th May 2005, 06:53 AM

Hi Frank,

1. "Virola Giratoria" means a navaja fitted with a rotating bolster lock. The Spaniards in their search for a locking mechanism tried various solutions to the problem and this was one of them.

It consisted of a sheet-metal ferrule that rotated atop the bolster blocking the closure of the blade. It was easy to make and very secure, but was rather slow to open and tended to fall apart. Modern knives that use this type of lock are the French Opinel and the US Cold Steel Twistmaster.

You can see both these knives here:

http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/kn...nel_large.html

2. Re Translation of Forton's Works: To date, as far as the English speaking world is concerned, there has been little serious interest in the navaja. The recent spate of interest seems to have came mainly from martial artists - Serious collectors and historians of edged weapons do not appear to be all that interested and in any event, such potential readers are not numerous. Maybe a market survey would contradict this, but even such surveys cost a lot.

A translation of La Navaja Espanola Antigua with its 490 pages, would be a huge task, requiring at least a year's full time work. You can chalk that up as at least $US60,000 and then there are also the publishing costs. To invest that kind of time and money, one would have to be sure of selling a lot of copies.

Perhaps a much more abridged work would have a better chance, but by necessity it would have to be a superficial coverage of the subject.

So, don't hold your breath waiting for a translation.

Cheers
Chris

29th April 2005, 06:36 AM	#2
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Hi Tom, The rule of thumb for dating navajas, assuming that they are fitted with a spine spring, is by the locking mechanism. Post 1900: External sheet metal spine spring, fitted with a release lever as per my earlier post. Circa 1865-1900: Ring release and spring housed within the handle as per my earlier post. Circa 1815-1865 Spring housed within the handle and no release mechanism (pick-lock) Pre 1815: The spine spring is screwed to the back of the handle and no release mechanism (pick-lock) as in this picture. The importation of French navajas into Spain commenced in earnest around 1850 and fell away after 1870. Given that that navaja has a ring release and a modified lock for the Spanish market, its date of manufacture was probably around 1865-70, maybe even a little later. I do not know if these Spanish style navajas were sold in countries other than Spain. If they were, then it could have been made as late as 1890 or thereabouts. The Spanish authority Forton, simply dates similar ones as from the "late 19th century". Cheers Chris Attached Images

30th April 2005, 12:38 PM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The idea of most dropped attacks is that they are done suddenly, taking the opponant by surprise and going under his guard by putting you suddenly below where he thinks you are. There are no magic bullets in hand to hand combat; instantaneity of deadliness is about 90% of it (and I'm leaving asid massed combat, which we aren't discussing and where grouping and communication are probably #1) and is much more important than skill, technique, etc. It's all about speed and anticipation (ESP helps). In other words, this is a trick. The more any such is seen, taught, practiced, and practiced against, the less use it becomes, of course. I remember in SCA heavy weapons combat a trick that only works on a hard smooth floor (or sometimes grass under the right conditions, but not so reliably.....) if you have hard, well-padded knee armour; you charge the opponant head-on, seeming to bull in like an unskilled fool, but at the last instant drop to your knees, sliding in beneath his guard, and strike. It is extremely effective against most people who haven't seen it, because it is unexpected and shifts the attack to a direction from which no attack was thought possible. the technique discussed is rather similar. The idea of the instant kill is a weakness of many sport/training fighting methods. It may be neccessary to them, but it is important for real fighters to train in such things as slide up on your knees then roll away and back to your feet, etc. The move discussed here seems eminently liable to such a recovery that uses gravity/momentum to continue the movement into a roll to the side. Many moves that "kill" an opponant in sport/practice leave you open should he, as we actual animals tend to do, rudely refrain from dying instantly and quietly. I also note a similarity to Spainish bullfighting, though, and to the idea of the perfect thrust, and the perfect understanding and control of the bull, and wherein the armpit of the killer ends up and even comes to rest directly before the point of the weapon of the victim as a very deliberate display that is considered of surpassing meaning and beauty by the afficionadi. It is sometimes important to remember, too, in these matters, that though such a thing as fear of Death may seem a constant it is actually a cultural construct in some degree, and many cultures have not shared it in anything like the degree it is seen in modern/industrial culture. I recently heard a great saying; I can't remember it precisely, but along the lines of "When we learn to die, then we are able to live free." Killing the enemy, living and dying honorably/morally, and even the aesthetic beauty of movements and situations can all exceed the desire to continue living within traditional combat. A further note on the soft pass (? low pass?) is that it not only puts you lower than expected, but "ups" your reach, allowing you to strike when the opponant thought he was out of range. There is a very similar extension thrust with a longspear (pike) that can be very effective. The best, most practiced, and stretchiest spearmen can get quite a notable range boost from it. I'll also add that many fighting styles teach one how to fight from the ground; some even favour it, and styles that lack this typically find it hard to counter, mistaking the ground for a position of weakness; thinking only the feet can successfully interface with it or something; another limitting paradigm whose.....limitations can really come out in a fight. Last edited by tom hyle; 30th April 2005 at 01:10 PM.

1st May 2005, 11:24 AM	#5
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Hi, Tom, Fair comment - You draw attention to something that should be a mandatory recitation by all students of martial arts, be it Eastern or Western; Namely, that even the most seemingly devastating attack may not be instantly disabling, giving ample opportunity to the opponent to counter-strike. In the long history of dueling, there have been numerous examples of someone scoring a hit, thinking that the fight was over, only to receive an unexpected counter hit with grievous consequences. Knives lacking a reach advantage bring both parties extremely close and expose the wielder to counter hits far more than swords do; This has to be kept in mind when choosing tactics. Another point (no pun intended) is that the PS is infrequently performed with modern fencing swords, because they move too fast, yet it is worth remembering that knives are faster again, able to change direction even more quickly. Frank, Many of the 6"-9" bladed navajas that had a lock were capable weapons, but only once they were opened. Most were slow and clumsy in this respect, but there were a few notable exceptions. I have an old 10" bladed navaja, made in the French manner with a "teat" lock (as still found on Italian stilettos) the massive blade of which can be flung open like any modern tactical folder (see picture). It is very weak at the hinge but it can be deployed mighty fast - A shorter bladed version would have been rather formidable. Of course, for this very reason, it would have been banned in most Spanish jurisdictions, much in the manner that automatic switchblades tend to attract the full wrath of the law in modern times. Much more research is needed before we can say with certainty just how common was the violent usage of navajas. There is some rather compelling evidence in Forton's works that a most attacks were committed with weapons other than navajas. Another factor to keep in mind is that in the old days, lacking forensic capabilities, the authorities could not easily disprove a confession in which the guilty party admitted to having carved up someone with a navaja (more or less legal) as opposed to the real weapon used having been a dagger or knife (highly illegal), rapidly drawn from concealment. Personally, after having examined quite a number of antiques, I am of the opinion that actual fighting with navajas must have been far less frequent than alleged these days and when it did occur, it was in ritualized dueling that seldom went the distance and during which only easily parried sweeping cuts were being traded (most navajas did not have a lock and this made the more lethal thrust very risky). Cheers Chris Attached Images Last edited by Chris Evans; 1st May 2005 at 12:27 PM.

29th April 2005, 05:45 AM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Thanks. What would you estimate the period to be on that piece? It seems like it might tie in with known art movements; Egyptophilism or whatever it's called; I know that seems to go through modern Europe and N America in waves, from time to time. The images don't seem to be drawn straight from heiroglyphics, at least not entirely, but to be referential of them, and perhaps of other "ethnic" ie antiquitous and/or non-European symbols? Primitivism? Art movements are one of those things where the words in the name don't mean what the words mean, and that always confuses me when the humans do that..........it has something, perhaps, to do with social institutions........confusing to us Martians This seems like an European art movement I've seen. It reminds of deco, but is this knife older than that?.......a possible cross-reference, anyway. Last edited by tom hyle; 29th April 2005 at 06:02 AM.

30th April 2005, 12:17 PM	#3
Frank Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 23	Chris Thanks for that explanation of the PS. I have seen the reference to it many times but never understood what it menas. I am surprised that nobody woke up that it could get you killed! I have been reading about the MdB on teh net for some years and nobody seemed to pick up on that. . I have seen that move described in other knife fighting books too. Can't remeber which but I have seen it. Makes one wonder doesn't it. Now here is a question for you. Were ANY of the navajas suitable for fighting. From what I can see in Fortons books, more than half did not even have a lock. Best wishes Frank

6th May 2005, 05:27 AM	#6
Frank Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 23	Chris, In Fortons Navaja Antigua page 258 there is a navaja described as VIROLA GIRATORIA. My Spanish helper has not been able to translatte this for me. Does not seem to have a lock of any kind. What is this navaja. Why has this book not ben translated? I find it very frustrating and hard to understand. Such a good book full of info and nobody has bothered with it. Cant believe it. Best Wishes Frank

6th May 2005, 06:53 AM	#7
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Hi Frank, 1. "Virola Giratoria" means a navaja fitted with a rotating bolster lock. The Spaniards in their search for a locking mechanism tried various solutions to the problem and this was one of them. It consisted of a sheet-metal ferrule that rotated atop the bolster blocking the closure of the blade. It was easy to make and very secure, but was rather slow to open and tended to fall apart. Modern knives that use this type of lock are the French Opinel and the US Cold Steel Twistmaster. You can see both these knives here: http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/kn...nel_large.html 2. Re Translation of Forton's Works: To date, as far as the English speaking world is concerned, there has been little serious interest in the navaja. The recent spate of interest seems to have came mainly from martial artists - Serious collectors and historians of edged weapons do not appear to be all that interested and in any event, such potential readers are not numerous. Maybe a market survey would contradict this, but even such surveys cost a lot. A translation of La Navaja Espanola Antigua with its 490 pages, would be a huge task, requiring at least a year's full time work. You can chalk that up as at least $US60,000 and then there are also the publishing costs. To invest that kind of time and money, one would have to be sure of selling a lot of copies. Perhaps a much more abridged work would have a better chance, but by necessity it would have to be a superficial coverage of the subject. So, don't hold your breath waiting for a translation. Cheers Chris