Were Rapiers used in Combat?

kisak · 6th May 2009, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Kisak, were any examples of the cuphilt (the deep cup type of 'Spanish' style) known in Sweden? There is so little material available on Swedish weapons, and just wondered.

As far as I can tell, cup-hilts never seem to have been common in Sweden (the usual problem fo proving the absence of something popping up here). There's none on display in the permanent collections at the Royal Armoury or the Army Museum (though I think it would be a safe bet that they have a few in a magazine somewhere).

There are none shown in Berg's Svenska Blankvapen, and I can't recall them being shown in Seitz' Svärdet och Värjan either, though both these publications are about military weapons. And on the utterly unscientific side of things, cup hilts doesn't seem to be very common at sword auctions and such here either.

In short, my guess would be that the cup hilt never saw any popularity of note up here. Perhaps somewhat comparable to the military cuphilt in general idea (mating a "civilian" hilt to a "military" blade) though is the "commander's sword" used by officers from the late 17th to early 19th century. While these have hilts of a shape I'd normally associate with smallsword, they come in all sizes from smallswords to large cavalry cut-n-thrust swords.

pbleed · 7th May 2009, 02:14 AM

What an interesting thread this has been. Thank you all. It brings tomy mind whatkind of sword ought to be called a 'rapier.' Most of the swords we find and call rapiers are a good deal lighter than heavy swepthilts. Cup hilts and other late 17th to 18th century rapiers seem generally lighter. These are 'rapiers', but I have a hard time seeing them as military weapons. I will bring these musings to a reconsideration of European military history.
Peter

Jim McDougall · 7th May 2009, 03:23 AM

Kisak, thank you for responding on the question about cuphilts in Sweden. I know the excellent references by Berg and Seitz, which are both outstanding, but unfortunately do not have them with me. I was curious about whether the cuphilt, which did in some degree get to Germany, got as far north as Sweden as so many German sword types did.

Good information on the 'commanders swords' which are indeed a heavier version of the standard smallsword style, and that is an excellent example of civilian style hilts combined with heavier blades for military use.
This is much the same as in Great Britain as the 1796 regulation patterns were introduced. While the cavalry officers had a stirrup hilt sabre for light cavalry, the heavy cavalry had an 'undress' basket hilt type sword for regular wear, and a 'boatshell' type hilt similar to smallsword design for dress occasions, also with a heavy straight blade.

Hello Peter, and I'm really glad to see you posting here on this! You are right, that most of the rapiers associated with civilian town wear and duelling etc. are indeed 'lighter' and certainly would not be effective in the military combat situations typically considered.
I think what we are finding is that apparantly while the hilt forms are essentially of the styles popular with civilian weapons of the period, the blades began to become more substantial in military configurations. In the 18th century the rapier term itself seems to have somewhat fallen out of use, except with the Spanish and Portuguese who profoundly maintained thier traditions in swordsmanship.
The cuphilt style was maintained in the Caribbean and many of the colonies in New Spain, and the 'dragoon' swords known as 'bilbo's' have a heavy interpretation swept hilt rapier style. These swords were likely used well into the 19th century.

It seems like on these forums, many discussions result in disparity in terminology in trying to classify weapons. While it seems that such emphasis on terminology would be of little importance in studying the actual weapons, I think it is important to understand the terms and how variations may have developed or applied. Having to rely on contemporary narrative or accounts in such study it is important to know that the weapon being described is actually the one we presume it to be.

I think one great example of this is that accounts of the death of Magellan describes him being killed by an Islander with what is presumed to be a 'kampilan'. We can only presume this refers to the type of sword we now know in the Philippines, but perhaps several hundred years ago it meant another form altogether.

Of course I know that you are more than well established in these tenets of study

and I am only recounting this as a matter of perspective in the thread, so please pardon my ramblings. I really am very honored to have you join us here.

Thanks very much Kisak and Peter,

All the best,
Jim

fearn · 7th May 2009, 04:32 AM

Hi Jim,

Don't know about you, but isn't there a potential similarity between "war rapiers" and civilian rapiers, and the "warrior" and "scholar" forms of the jian (wu jian and wen jian)? It's an interesting parallel evolution, perhaps.

F

Jim McDougall · 7th May 2009, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

Hi Jim,

Don't know about you, but isn't there a potential similarity between "war rapiers" and civilian rapiers, and the "warrior" and "scholar" forms of the jian (wu jian and wen jian)? It's an interesting parallel evolution, perhaps.

F

Another outstanding comparison Fearn!
I am sure you are much better versed than I am in these and the Japanese weapons you have mentioned, but that certainly does sound like a well placed comparison. I honestly do not know the distinct differences between these, other than the obvious use of the term 'scholars' for the civilian forms.

All the best,
Jim

sirupate · 7th May 2009, 11:09 AM

I remember reading some where that the military rapeirs were of a sturdier build, this probably did not apply to high ranking Officers mind.

Hello Jim

Quote:

I think one great example of this is that accounts of the death of Magellan describes him being killed by an Islander with what is presumed to be a 'kampilan'. We can only presume this refers to the type of sword we now know in the Philippines, but perhaps several hundred years ago it meant another form altogether.

When I was in Cebu a couple of years back, they (Cacoy Doce Pares World Federation) didn't believe it was the Kampilan, they believe that it was a large club, that was probably used for grinding food stuffs.

kisak · 8th May 2009, 04:06 PM

Regarding this bit about heavy war-rapiers and light civilian version, how is the distribution between light and heavy? Do we have two somewhat distinct groups, or is is perhaps just a bell-curve from light to heavy, with the lighter ones being more likely to see civilian use, and the heavier ones more likely to see military use? And what differences we have, how much of these existed in a single point in time, and how much is due to developments over time? Many cup-hilts for example would seem to be considerable later than the majority of swept-hilts.

Basically, I'm not entirely convinced yet that speaking of the civilian and military ones as fully separate categories is entirely suitable, at least not for slightly earlier times (say, 16th to mid 17th century for a rough guess at a suitable time period there). Looking at things like officer's scarf swords, it may not be necessarily so that lighter swords indicate civilian use with any greater probability, at least not in all time periods.

These aren't areas I've looked into nearly enough, but hopefully it'll be a few decent questions at least.

7th May 2009, 02:14 AM	#2
pbleed Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Little Rock, Arkansas Posts: 88	this issue requires definition What an interesting thread this has been. Thank you all. It brings tomy mind whatkind of sword ought to be called a 'rapier.' Most of the swords we find and call rapiers are a good deal lighter than heavy swepthilts. Cup hilts and other late 17th to 18th century rapiers seem generally lighter. These are 'rapiers', but I have a hard time seeing them as military weapons. I will bring these musings to a reconsideration of European military history. Peter

7th May 2009, 03:23 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Kisak, thank you for responding on the question about cuphilts in Sweden. I know the excellent references by Berg and Seitz, which are both outstanding, but unfortunately do not have them with me. I was curious about whether the cuphilt, which did in some degree get to Germany, got as far north as Sweden as so many German sword types did. Good information on the 'commanders swords' which are indeed a heavier version of the standard smallsword style, and that is an excellent example of civilian style hilts combined with heavier blades for military use. This is much the same as in Great Britain as the 1796 regulation patterns were introduced. While the cavalry officers had a stirrup hilt sabre for light cavalry, the heavy cavalry had an 'undress' basket hilt type sword for regular wear, and a 'boatshell' type hilt similar to smallsword design for dress occasions, also with a heavy straight blade. Hello Peter, and I'm really glad to see you posting here on this! You are right, that most of the rapiers associated with civilian town wear and duelling etc. are indeed 'lighter' and certainly would not be effective in the military combat situations typically considered. I think what we are finding is that apparantly while the hilt forms are essentially of the styles popular with civilian weapons of the period, the blades began to become more substantial in military configurations. In the 18th century the rapier term itself seems to have somewhat fallen out of use, except with the Spanish and Portuguese who profoundly maintained thier traditions in swordsmanship. The cuphilt style was maintained in the Caribbean and many of the colonies in New Spain, and the 'dragoon' swords known as 'bilbo's' have a heavy interpretation swept hilt rapier style. These swords were likely used well into the 19th century. It seems like on these forums, many discussions result in disparity in terminology in trying to classify weapons. While it seems that such emphasis on terminology would be of little importance in studying the actual weapons, I think it is important to understand the terms and how variations may have developed or applied. Having to rely on contemporary narrative or accounts in such study it is important to know that the weapon being described is actually the one we presume it to be. I think one great example of this is that accounts of the death of Magellan describes him being killed by an Islander with what is presumed to be a 'kampilan'. We can only presume this refers to the type of sword we now know in the Philippines, but perhaps several hundred years ago it meant another form altogether. Of course I know that you are more than well established in these tenets of study and I am only recounting this as a matter of perspective in the thread, so please pardon my ramblings. I really am very honored to have you join us here. Thanks very much Kisak and Peter, All the best, Jim

7th May 2009, 04:32 AM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Jim, Don't know about you, but isn't there a potential similarity between "war rapiers" and civilian rapiers, and the "warrior" and "scholar" forms of the jian (wu jian and wen jian)? It's an interesting parallel evolution, perhaps. F

8th May 2009, 04:06 PM	#7
kisak Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Stockholm Posts: 182	Regarding this bit about heavy war-rapiers and light civilian version, how is the distribution between light and heavy? Do we have two somewhat distinct groups, or is is perhaps just a bell-curve from light to heavy, with the lighter ones being more likely to see civilian use, and the heavier ones more likely to see military use? And what differences we have, how much of these existed in a single point in time, and how much is due to developments over time? Many cup-hilts for example would seem to be considerable later than the majority of swept-hilts. Basically, I'm not entirely convinced yet that speaking of the civilian and military ones as fully separate categories is entirely suitable, at least not for slightly earlier times (say, 16th to mid 17th century for a rough guess at a suitable time period there). Looking at things like officer's scarf swords, it may not be necessarily so that lighter swords indicate civilian use with any greater probability, at least not in all time periods. These aren't areas I've looked into nearly enough, but hopefully it'll be a few decent questions at least.