A mysterious Transylvanian sword : a Sino-Japanese influence possible ?

Andrew · 29th April 2005, 04:30 AM

Absolutely beautiful, Radu, and a mystery as well! Can you post any photos of the blade?

Jim McDougall · 29th April 2005, 05:26 AM

Outstanding Radu !!!

Thats what we're talkin' about!!! Thank you.
This is really a fascinating mystery and cant wait to get this one going......as Holmes always said......"the games afoot"!!! ("The Return of Sherlock Holmes" 1904, 'The Adventure of the Abbey Grange' by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle). Ahem, ahem

Seriously, nicely done!
Best regards,
Jim

Radu Transylvanicus · 29th April 2005, 07:33 AM

Again, unfortunatelly, that is the only photo I have and you see everything there is to it... wish I had pictures of the blade further but not so far ... Is there a chance anyone could dig for another catalog of Dresden Historical Museum (they made quite a few types and editions, I have another one on their firearms...) or maybe someone with a large library, someone in Europe can request another image of it, someone from the Krakow museum for example,

with ties ....
Again the museum is: Staatliche Kunstsammlungen Dresden and the section of the establishment where the sword resides is : Der Rüstkammer (The Armoury)... they also have a Jagereikammer (The Hunting Chamber) and a Harnischkammer (The Equine Hall). Here is a link of the on-line Rüstkammer exponates but unfortunatelly the sword is not one of them so far but it has a lot of interesting things, even a keris...
After clicking the link, look for the last icon on the first row to get to you the Armoury (Rüstkammer) image gallery:
http://bildarchiv.skd-dresden.de/skddb/Start.jsp

If I could only see the blade we might even go as far as saying that it was inspired by a dha , wouldn't that be something ?

Mark · 29th April 2005, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

If I could only see the blade we might even go as far as saying that it was inspired by a dha , wouldn't that be something ?

Thinking about it, that might not be such an outlandish idea. The Kingdom of Siam was sending emissaries to the court of Louis XIV, and eventually had an embassar. At the same time, re-fitted (and even non-refitted) Japanese swords were common as royal accessories in Siam. It is not out of the question that among gifts sent to Louie Louie (ohh, oohh, we got to go ....) were one or more Japanese-style swords. Perhaps this armorer saw one, or whoever commissioned it saw one.

As an interesting side-note, the King of Siam gave a Japanese style sword to the U.S. President (I forget who), which is not on display in a corner or the Smithsonian Museum of American History. I will see if I can find a picture on the internet, and if not I'll try and get a photo. It has a beautiful watered steel blade.

Later ...

I remembered that Dan had posted pictures of the "samurai" Siamese court swords on the old forum. Note the similarity in the handles.

The thread is here

Radu Transylvanicus · 30th April 2005, 11:21 AM

WOLVIEX: Jak się masz, drogi bracie? Dołącz do nas, potrzebuję cię ! Dont answer in Polish !

tom hyle · 30th April 2005, 12:40 PM

By George, I think Mark may have it! How very interesting. The shape of this handle, while similar to old European depictions of Japanese swords, is notably different from that of real Japanese swords (not flat, swelled-ended), and is however similar to these dhatanas (

) and to dha in general. Could Europe have conflated two E Asian swords, especially two that are similar and even seem to have blended within that Asian sphere? Doesn't this resemble Burton's illustration of a Japanese sword?

wolviex · 30th April 2005, 02:30 PM

Radu!

Sorry for being quiet for so long but I was very busy, and still I am.

Now is the weekend. So I'm out of work and decided to idle the time away

I think I can find something about Dresden museum in my bookshelf at work - will see, but you will have to wait till Monday.

BEAUTIFUL AND OUTSTANDING WEAPON. You've got already a lot information plus a trace from Mark who is probably nearest to the truth at the moment. First of all I would search for more informations about our Transilvanian armourer, to answer few basic questions: why he has made such sword, and for whom. Without that, and without checking documents in archives we can imagine many different things without end. Does he travelled to the far away countries, does he knew the far away cultures, maybe someone gave him a project of such sword to make? Questions questions.... The floral pattern - do we have other examples of such beautiful depicting elsewhere? Are this European or Eastern flowers? This are the questions which will bring us closer to the truth. How did it found itself in Dresden, by the way? In few years later Dresden became "second capital" of Poland, when Elector of Saxony was elected as the King of Poland - Augustus II. But I think this has nothing to do with this sword anyway

One remark. The handle made of rows of stones reminds me some European (Italian?) daggers of this period. Maybe it's wrong direction, but it's good to consider every possible way.

Regards!

29th April 2005, 07:33 AM	#3
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Again, unfortunatelly, that is the only photo I have and you see everything there is to it... wish I had pictures of the blade further but not so far ... Is there a chance anyone could dig for another catalog of Dresden Historical Museum (they made quite a few types and editions, I have another one on their firearms...) or maybe someone with a large library, someone in Europe can request another image of it, someone from the Krakow museum for example, with ties .... Again the museum is: Staatliche Kunstsammlungen Dresden and the section of the establishment where the sword resides is : Der Rüstkammer (The Armoury)... they also have a Jagereikammer (The Hunting Chamber) and a Harnischkammer (The Equine Hall). Here is a link of the on-line Rüstkammer exponates but unfortunatelly the sword is not one of them so far but it has a lot of interesting things, even a keris... After clicking the link, look for the last icon on the first row to get to you the Armoury (Rüstkammer) image gallery: http://bildarchiv.skd-dresden.de/skddb/Start.jsp If I could only see the blade we might even go as far as saying that it was inspired by a *dha* , wouldn't that be something ? Last edited by Radu Transylvanicus; 29th April 2005 at 11:07 AM.

30th April 2005, 12:40 PM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Go Mark! By George, I think Mark may have it! How very interesting. The shape of this handle, while similar to old European depictions of Japanese swords, is notably different from that of real Japanese swords (not flat, swelled-ended), and is however similar to these dhatanas ( ) and to dha in general. Could Europe have conflated two E Asian swords, especially two that are similar and even seem to have blended within that Asian sphere? Doesn't this resemble Burton's illustration of a Japanese sword?

29th April 2005, 04:30 AM	#1
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Absolutely beautiful, Radu, and a mystery as well! Can you post any photos of the blade?

29th April 2005, 05:26 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,744	Outstanding Radu !!! Thats what we're talkin' about!!! Thank you. This is really a fascinating mystery and cant wait to get this one going......as Holmes always said......"the games afoot"!!! ("The Return of Sherlock Holmes" 1904, 'The Adventure of the Abbey Grange' by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle). Ahem, ahem Seriously, nicely done! Best regards, Jim

30th April 2005, 11:21 AM	#5
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	WOLVIEX: Jak się masz, drogi bracie? Dołącz do nas, potrzebuję cię ! Dont answer in Polish !

30th April 2005, 02:30 PM	#7
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 421	Radu! Sorry for being quiet for so long but I was very busy, and still I am. Now is the weekend. So I'm out of work and decided to idle the time away I think I can find something about Dresden museum in my bookshelf at work - will see, but you will have to wait till Monday. BEAUTIFUL AND OUTSTANDING WEAPON. You've got already a lot information plus a trace from Mark who is probably nearest to the truth at the moment. First of all I would search for more informations about our Transilvanian armourer, to answer few basic questions: why he has made such sword, and for whom. Without that, and without checking documents in archives we can imagine many different things without end. Does he travelled to the far away countries, does he knew the far away cultures, maybe someone gave him a project of such sword to make? Questions questions.... The floral pattern - do we have other examples of such beautiful depicting elsewhere? Are this European or Eastern flowers? This are the questions which will bring us closer to the truth. How did it found itself in Dresden, by the way? In few years later Dresden became "second capital" of Poland, when Elector of Saxony was elected as the King of Poland - Augustus II. But I think this has nothing to do with this sword anyway One remark. The handle made of rows of stones reminds me some European (Italian?) daggers of this period. Maybe it's wrong direction, but it's good to consider every possible way. Regards!