A mysterious Transylvanian sword : a Sino-Japanese influence possible ?

Radu Transylvanicus · 29th April 2005, 03:05 AM

Between 1543 until 1650 In Japan took place what was called the "Nanban Period" where foreigners were allowed to enter the the country, most of them merchant visitors from China, Holland, Spain, Portugal and England... That until the feudalist politics initiated the ,,Seclusion Laws" that forbided almost any foreigner to enter Japan and the country become completely isolated for centuries... (The Wikipedia Encyclopedia)
The same Wikipedia Encyclopedia article continues : "One thing the Japanese were definitely interested in was barbarian guns. The first three Europeans to reach Japan were Portuguese and came on a Chinese ship to the southern island of Tanegashima, and they had arquebuses and ammunitions with them. At that time, Japan was right in the middle of a huge civil war called the Sengoku period (Period of the country at war). Strictly speaking, the Japanese were already familiar with gunpowder (invented by, and transmitted from China), and had been using basic Chinese guns and cannon tubes called Teppō (鉄砲 Lit.”Iron cannon”) for around 270 years before the arrival of the Portuguese. The Portuguese guns however were light, had a matchlock firing mechanism and were easy to aim with."
I realise of course the enormity of distances and how historicaly separated European Transylvania and insular Japan are but here is a theory for the start we can evolve by reading the above !
All that in case it was inspired by Japanese and not a Chinese sword !

Andrew · 29th April 2005, 03:30 AM

Absolutely beautiful, Radu, and a mystery as well! Can you post any photos of the blade?

Jim McDougall · 29th April 2005, 04:26 AM

Outstanding Radu !!!

Thats what we're talkin' about!!! Thank you.
This is really a fascinating mystery and cant wait to get this one going......as Holmes always said......"the games afoot"!!! ("The Return of Sherlock Holmes" 1904, 'The Adventure of the Abbey Grange' by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle). Ahem, ahem

Seriously, nicely done!
Best regards,
Jim

Radu Transylvanicus · 29th April 2005, 06:33 AM

Again, unfortunatelly, that is the only photo I have and you see everything there is to it... wish I had pictures of the blade further but not so far ... Is there a chance anyone could dig for another catalog of Dresden Historical Museum (they made quite a few types and editions, I have another one on their firearms...) or maybe someone with a large library, someone in Europe can request another image of it, someone from the Krakow museum for example,

with ties ....
Again the museum is: Staatliche Kunstsammlungen Dresden and the section of the establishment where the sword resides is : Der Rüstkammer (The Armoury)... they also have a Jagereikammer (The Hunting Chamber) and a Harnischkammer (The Equine Hall). Here is a link of the on-line Rüstkammer exponates but unfortunatelly the sword is not one of them so far but it has a lot of interesting things, even a keris...
After clicking the link, look for the last icon on the first row to get to you the Armoury (Rüstkammer) image gallery:
http://bildarchiv.skd-dresden.de/skddb/Start.jsp

If I could only see the blade we might even go as far as saying that it was inspired by a dha , wouldn't that be something ?

Mark · 29th April 2005, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

If I could only see the blade we might even go as far as saying that it was inspired by a dha , wouldn't that be something ?

Thinking about it, that might not be such an outlandish idea. The Kingdom of Siam was sending emissaries to the court of Louis XIV, and eventually had an embassar. At the same time, re-fitted (and even non-refitted) Japanese swords were common as royal accessories in Siam. It is not out of the question that among gifts sent to Louie Louie (ohh, oohh, we got to go ....) were one or more Japanese-style swords. Perhaps this armorer saw one, or whoever commissioned it saw one.

As an interesting side-note, the King of Siam gave a Japanese style sword to the U.S. President (I forget who), which is not on display in a corner or the Smithsonian Museum of American History. I will see if I can find a picture on the internet, and if not I'll try and get a photo. It has a beautiful watered steel blade.

Later ...

I remembered that Dan had posted pictures of the "samurai" Siamese court swords on the old forum. Note the similarity in the handles.

The thread is here

Radu Transylvanicus · 30th April 2005, 10:21 AM

WOLVIEX: Jak się masz, drogi bracie? Dołącz do nas, potrzebuję cię ! Dont answer in Polish !

tom hyle · 30th April 2005, 11:40 AM

By George, I think Mark may have it! How very interesting. The shape of this handle, while similar to old European depictions of Japanese swords, is notably different from that of real Japanese swords (not flat, swelled-ended), and is however similar to these dhatanas (

) and to dha in general. Could Europe have conflated two E Asian swords, especially two that are similar and even seem to have blended within that Asian sphere? Doesn't this resemble Burton's illustration of a Japanese sword?

29th April 2005, 03:05 AM	#1
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Between 1543 until 1650 In Japan took place what was called the "Nanban Period" where foreigners were allowed to enter the the country, most of them merchant visitors from China, Holland, Spain, Portugal and England... That until the feudalist politics initiated the ,,Seclusion Laws" that forbided almost any foreigner to enter Japan and the country become completely isolated for centuries... (*The Wikipedia Encyclopedia) The same Wikipedia Encyclopedia* article continues : "One thing the Japanese were definitely interested in was barbarian guns. The first three Europeans to reach Japan were Portuguese and came on a Chinese ship to the southern island of Tanegashima, and they had arquebuses and ammunitions with them. At that time, Japan was right in the middle of a huge civil war called the Sengoku period (Period of the country at war). Strictly speaking, the Japanese were already familiar with gunpowder (invented by, and transmitted from China), and had been using basic Chinese guns and cannon tubes called Teppō (鉄砲 Lit.”Iron cannon”) for around 270 years before the arrival of the Portuguese. The Portuguese guns however were light, had a matchlock firing mechanism and were easy to aim with." I realise of course the enormity of distances and how historicaly separated European Transylvania and insular Japan are but here is a theory for the start we can evolve by reading the above ! All that in case it was inspired by Japanese and not a Chinese sword ! Last edited by Radu Transylvanicus; 29th April 2005 at 10:04 AM.

29th April 2005, 06:33 AM	#4
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Again, unfortunatelly, that is the only photo I have and you see everything there is to it... wish I had pictures of the blade further but not so far ... Is there a chance anyone could dig for another catalog of Dresden Historical Museum (they made quite a few types and editions, I have another one on their firearms...) or maybe someone with a large library, someone in Europe can request another image of it, someone from the Krakow museum for example, with ties .... Again the museum is: Staatliche Kunstsammlungen Dresden and the section of the establishment where the sword resides is : Der Rüstkammer (The Armoury)... they also have a Jagereikammer (The Hunting Chamber) and a Harnischkammer (The Equine Hall). Here is a link of the on-line Rüstkammer exponates but unfortunatelly the sword is not one of them so far but it has a lot of interesting things, even a keris... After clicking the link, look for the last icon on the first row to get to you the Armoury (Rüstkammer) image gallery: http://bildarchiv.skd-dresden.de/skddb/Start.jsp If I could only see the blade we might even go as far as saying that it was inspired by a *dha* , wouldn't that be something ? Last edited by Radu Transylvanicus; 29th April 2005 at 10:07 AM.

30th April 2005, 11:40 AM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Go Mark! By George, I think Mark may have it! How very interesting. The shape of this handle, while similar to old European depictions of Japanese swords, is notably different from that of real Japanese swords (not flat, swelled-ended), and is however similar to these dhatanas ( ) and to dha in general. Could Europe have conflated two E Asian swords, especially two that are similar and even seem to have blended within that Asian sphere? Doesn't this resemble Burton's illustration of a Japanese sword?

29th April 2005, 03:30 AM	#2
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Absolutely beautiful, Radu, and a mystery as well! Can you post any photos of the blade?

29th April 2005, 04:26 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Outstanding Radu !!! Thats what we're talkin' about!!! Thank you. This is really a fascinating mystery and cant wait to get this one going......as Holmes always said......"the games afoot"!!! ("The Return of Sherlock Holmes" 1904, 'The Adventure of the Abbey Grange' by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle). Ahem, ahem Seriously, nicely done! Best regards, Jim

30th April 2005, 10:21 AM	#6
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	WOLVIEX: Jak się masz, drogi bracie? Dołącz do nas, potrzebuję cię ! Dont answer in Polish !