Were Rapiers used in Combat?

[Jim McDougall]

Kisak and Fernando,
Thank you so much for responding guys!
Beautifully stated and well thought out observations and I've spent some time trying to find references here as well. I am inclined to agree with both of you in what you have noted.
I think there were some differences between military and civilian rapiers, though I think these might be hard to distinguish by hilt alone, as these fully developed hilts, even many swept hilts, seem to have carried heavier 'arming' type blades in military parlance.
I think the very narrow civilian rapiers big problem was not only too narrow and fragile, but too long, some reaching fantastic lengths which even promoted some efforts at regulating same.

Kisak, I remember the first time I handled an actual rapier, I was stunned at the sheer heft! This certainly was anything but the light and delicate fencing foil or Hollywood rapiers waved around as such...it was heavy, solid and one could see how quickly combat with these would spend the combatants.

Apparantly the military use of complex hilts with the heavier arming blades was well known, and I think that the ever present villain of semantics in terminology might present difficulty in assessing the actual use of rapiers or complex hilted soldiers swords in combat. In the Encyclopedia Brittanica of 1771, the rapier is defined as the old broadsword used by common soldiers.
(A.V.B. Norman, "The Rapier & Smallsword:1460-1820", p.27).

I guess I should have thought this out better The pappenheimer, while considered or at least termed a 'rapier' is better defined as an arming sword with developed rapier type hilt.

These sword terms can really be misleading ! Thank you both for your views, which explain in much better perspective what little I discovered in my daily rampage through the bookmobile!

All the very best,
Jim

[fearn]

Hi Jim and all,

Great question. Since I nominated the estoc in another thread as one of the ten weirdest blades in the world, I'd point out that many think it's "the" predecessor of "the" rapier. This is similar to what happened in Japan, when they switched from over-sized field swords to smaller, more manueverable katanas.

Basically, I think an estoc doesn't work well for its allegedly primary job (going through plate armor), but a smaller, lighter version would work pretty well for lighter armor. Good enough for the battlefield? Maybe, but it depends both on the battle and the skill of the fencer.

F

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fearn

Hi Jim and all,

Great question. Since I nominated the estoc in another thread as one of the ten weirdest blades in the world, I'd point out that many think it's "the" predecessor of "the" rapier. This is similar to what happened in Japan, when they switched from over-sized field swords to smaller, more manueverable katanas.

Basically, I think an estoc doesn't work well for its allegedly primary job (going through plate armor), but a smaller, lighter version would work pretty well for lighter armor. Good enough for the battlefield? Maybe, but it depends both on the battle and the skill of the fencer.

F

Excellent point Fearn!!! (no pun intended)
I hadn't thought of the estoc, also termed the 'tuck'. Actually, in reading through some of A.V.B.Norman's text, he does note that in many cases the full rapier type hilts were mounted with 'tuck' blades, so essentially here were the same basic fully developed hilts carrying blades for specific intent.
Those with heavier tuck form blades for military or heavier combat, and the thin civilian blades for everyday town wear, or of course, the duel.

From what I have understood of the estoc or tuck, it was not intended to pierce plate armor, but to stab through key uncovered locations, or in weak spots or separations. I would imagine that mail covered areas would also be somewhat vulnerable. Being no authority on medieval or Renaissance martial arts, I am only speculating here.

I think the idea of a thrusting weapon such as the rapier evolving from the tuck, which was often the long, narrow blade, with trefoil type cross section in many, to strengthen for rigid thrusting, is an outstanding thought. While I am not aware of this being discussed in the literature that I have checked, it of course is likely in text somewhere as it certainly seems logical.
Pretty impressive thinking there Fearn!!

What I always thought was interesting is these long, narrow bladed swords being mounted under the saddle, while either the arming sword or sabre was at the side of the horseman. One classic example seen is Rembrandt's "The Polish Rider" ( actually Lithuanian nobleman, as found in fascinating research found on this), where the horseman is 'armed to the teeth!', with these two swords, bow and arrow, and battle axe or war hammer (cant recall offhand).

Whatever the case, it does seem that the 'rapiers' actually used in combat in a military sense were typically arming swords with more substantial blades than the civilian types. One of my favorites has always been the Spanish cuphilt, in which by the 18th century remained with the distinct cup hilt but with much heavier blades. The term 'Spanish' is typically used collectively for these cuphilts of more familiar form, as they were certainly well known (and well used! in Portugal), as well as the Italian provincial regions, specifically Brescia, and in fact are even known to some degree in Germany.

Kisak, were any examples of the cuphilt (the deep cup type of 'Spanish' style) known in Sweden? There is so little material available on Swedish weapons, and just wondered.

Thank you Fearn for the excellent observation on the estoc!

All best regards,
Jim

[kisak]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Kisak, were any examples of the cuphilt (the deep cup type of 'Spanish' style) known in Sweden? There is so little material available on Swedish weapons, and just wondered.

As far as I can tell, cup-hilts never seem to have been common in Sweden (the usual problem fo proving the absence of something popping up here). There's none on display in the permanent collections at the Royal Armoury or the Army Museum (though I think it would be a safe bet that they have a few in a magazine somewhere).

There are none shown in Berg's Svenska Blankvapen, and I can't recall them being shown in Seitz' Svärdet och Värjan either, though both these publications are about military weapons. And on the utterly unscientific side of things, cup hilts doesn't seem to be very common at sword auctions and such here either.

In short, my guess would be that the cup hilt never saw any popularity of note up here. Perhaps somewhat comparable to the military cuphilt in general idea (mating a "civilian" hilt to a "military" blade) though is the "commander's sword" used by officers from the late 17th to early 19th century. While these have hilts of a shape I'd normally associate with smallsword, they come in all sizes from smallswords to large cavalry cut-n-thrust swords.

[pbleed]

What an interesting thread this has been. Thank you all. It brings tomy mind whatkind of sword ought to be called a 'rapier.' Most of the swords we find and call rapiers are a good deal lighter than heavy swepthilts. Cup hilts and other late 17th to 18th century rapiers seem generally lighter. These are 'rapiers', but I have a hard time seeing them as military weapons. I will bring these musings to a reconsideration of European military history.
Peter

[Jim McDougall]

Kisak, thank you for responding on the question about cuphilts in Sweden. I know the excellent references by Berg and Seitz, which are both outstanding, but unfortunately do not have them with me. I was curious about whether the cuphilt, which did in some degree get to Germany, got as far north as Sweden as so many German sword types did.

Good information on the 'commanders swords' which are indeed a heavier version of the standard smallsword style, and that is an excellent example of civilian style hilts combined with heavier blades for military use.
This is much the same as in Great Britain as the 1796 regulation patterns were introduced. While the cavalry officers had a stirrup hilt sabre for light cavalry, the heavy cavalry had an 'undress' basket hilt type sword for regular wear, and a 'boatshell' type hilt similar to smallsword design for dress occasions, also with a heavy straight blade.


Hello Peter, and I'm really glad to see you posting here on this! You are right, that most of the rapiers associated with civilian town wear and duelling etc. are indeed 'lighter' and certainly would not be effective in the military combat situations typically considered.
I think what we are finding is that apparantly while the hilt forms are essentially of the styles popular with civilian weapons of the period, the blades began to become more substantial in military configurations. In the 18th century the rapier term itself seems to have somewhat fallen out of use, except with the Spanish and Portuguese who profoundly maintained thier traditions in swordsmanship.
The cuphilt style was maintained in the Caribbean and many of the colonies in New Spain, and the 'dragoon' swords known as 'bilbo's' have a heavy interpretation swept hilt rapier style. These swords were likely used well into the 19th century.

It seems like on these forums, many discussions result in disparity in terminology in trying to classify weapons. While it seems that such emphasis on terminology would be of little importance in studying the actual weapons, I think it is important to understand the terms and how variations may have developed or applied. Having to rely on contemporary narrative or accounts in such study it is important to know that the weapon being described is actually the one we presume it to be.

I think one great example of this is that accounts of the death of Magellan describes him being killed by an Islander with what is presumed to be a 'kampilan'. We can only presume this refers to the type of sword we now know in the Philippines, but perhaps several hundred years ago it meant another form altogether.

Of course I know that you are more than well established in these tenets of study and I am only recounting this as a matter of perspective in the thread, so please pardon my ramblings. I really am very honored to have you join us here.


Thanks very much Kisak and Peter,

All the best,
Jim

[fearn]

Hi Jim,

Don't know about you, but isn't there a potential similarity between "war rapiers" and civilian rapiers, and the "warrior" and "scholar" forms of the jian (wu jian and wen jian)? It's an interesting parallel evolution, perhaps.

F