Pappenheimer Rapiers, German, ca. 1630

Matchlock · 5th May 2009, 03:11 PM

Thank you so much, Jim, for this profound documentation!

May I add that Pappenheim is a small country town in Central Franconia (part of Bavaria), with the Schloss of the Pappenheim family still there.

There is a nice German saying, the English equivalent being "I know my Pappenheimers well enough", which is historically attributed to Gottfried Heinrich Graf zu Pappenheim referred to by you, who wished to confirm that he was proud of how firmly he could rely on his men.

Michael

Jim McDougall · 5th May 2009, 03:34 PM

Hi Michael,
Thanks for the kind words and note on Schloss Pappenheim, and it truly is interesting that this actually is a location there. Is the schloss someplace that is set up for historical viewing, possibly a museum?

It seems interesting how much influence there was between the Continent and England, and it seems that during the English Civil Wars there was a great deal of equipment besides obviously the swords, used by the forces involved. If I am not mistaken, the 'lobster tail' helmets were of Continental influence, and I believe a number of them were German.

It would be interesting to learn more on when the term 'pappenheimer' actually entered the arms lexicon referring to this type hilt. It does seem to have arisen colloquially in some degree, much as the term was applied by the Count to the reliability of his troops. Perhaps the term itself may have been applied in the same sense to the reliability of German made swords, and somehow become affixed to this hilt style.

It seems there are quite a number of these type terms applied to edged weapons, and might be interesting to develop a thread on a glossary with some etymology and history.

All the best,
Jim

Matchlock · 6th May 2009, 04:38 PM

It seems interesting how much influence there was between the Continent and England, and it seems that during the English Civil Wars there was a great deal of equipment besides obviously the swords, used by the forces involved. If I am not mistaken, the 'lobster tail' helmets were of Continental influence, and I believe a number of them were German.

Exactly as ever, Jim,

A great number of Thirty Years War lobster tail helmets were German indeed although they seem to have originated from the Oriental part of the world and are also often connected with the Polish cavalry.

I attach two details of a German lobster tail helmet (Zischägge) from the Met collections and another sold at a previous Christie's sale.

I also managed to find the portrait of Gottfried Heinrich Graf zu Pappenheim (1594-1632) by Wenzel Hollar, which you mentioned, as well as two other portraits of the Graf plus a self portrait of the artist, Wenzel Hollar.

Furthermore I attach a few views of the town and old castle of Pappenheim, plus two of the Pappenheimer rapiers illustrated by Norman and quoted by you.

Best wishes,
Michael

Matchlock · 6th May 2009, 04:41 PM

Sorry, Jim,

The first paragraph in my previous reply is of course a quotation from your post but I somehow spoilt it to be marked as such.

Michael

Matchlock · 6th May 2009, 07:56 PM

I just seem to have discovered what may be a small sensation:

It seems as if the above posted Pappenheimer rapier retaining its orginal scabbard, the blade engraved with the portrait of a noble man and the Latin inscription Soli Deo (and) Gloria, belonged to a guardsman of Gottfried Heinrich Graf zu Pappenheim (1594-1632). It is now in the collection of a friend of mine.

The portrait on the blade is very similar to the Graf Pappenheim portraits posted.

Anyway, I'll repost them.

Michael

Matchlock · 17th November 2010, 08:06 AM

Two Pappenheimer rapiers, ca. 1630, preserved at Schloss Braunfels, Northern Germany.

Author's photos (2005) and copyright.

m

6th May 2009, 04:38 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Pappenheim and Lobster Tail Helmets It seems interesting how much influence there was between the Continent and England, and it seems that during the English Civil Wars there was a great deal of equipment besides obviously the swords, used by the forces involved. If I am not mistaken, the 'lobster tail' helmets were of Continental influence, and I believe a number of them were German. Exactly as ever, Jim, A great number of Thirty Years War lobster tail helmets were German indeed although they seem to have originated from the Oriental part of the world and are also often connected with the Polish cavalry. I attach two details of a German lobster tail helmet (Zischägge) from the Met collections and another sold at a previous Christie's sale. I also managed to find the portrait of Gottfried Heinrich Graf zu Pappenheim (1594-1632) by Wenzel Hollar, which you mentioned, as well as two other portraits of the Graf plus a self portrait of the artist, Wenzel Hollar. Furthermore I attach a few views of the town and old castle of Pappenheim, plus two of the Pappenheimer rapiers illustrated by Norman and quoted by you. Best wishes, Michael Attached Images

6th May 2009, 07:56 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	I just seem to have discovered what may be a small sensation: It seems as if the above posted Pappenheimer rapier retaining its orginal scabbard, the blade engraved with the portrait of a noble man and the Latin inscription Soli Deo (and) Gloria, belonged to a guardsman of Gottfried Heinrich Graf zu Pappenheim (1594-1632). It is now in the collection of a friend of mine. The portrait on the blade is very similar to the Graf Pappenheim portraits posted. Anyway, I'll repost them. Michael Attached Images

17th November 2010, 08:06 AM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Two Pappenheimer rapiers, ca. 1630, preserved at Schloss Braunfels, Northern Germany. Author's photos (2005) and copyright. m Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 17th November 2010 at 08:31 AM.

5th May 2009, 03:11 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Thank you so much, Jim, for this profound documentation! May I add that Pappenheim is a small country town in Central Franconia (part of Bavaria), with the Schloss of the Pappenheim family still there. There is a nice German saying, the English equivalent being "I know my Pappenheimers well enough", which is historically attributed to Gottfried Heinrich Graf zu Pappenheim referred to by you, who wished to confirm that he was proud of how firmly he could rely on his men. Michael

5th May 2009, 03:34 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Hi Michael, Thanks for the kind words and note on Schloss Pappenheim, and it truly is interesting that this actually is a location there. Is the schloss someplace that is set up for historical viewing, possibly a museum? It seems interesting how much influence there was between the Continent and England, and it seems that during the English Civil Wars there was a great deal of equipment besides obviously the swords, used by the forces involved. If I am not mistaken, the 'lobster tail' helmets were of Continental influence, and I believe a number of them were German. It would be interesting to learn more on when the term 'pappenheimer' actually entered the arms lexicon referring to this type hilt. It does seem to have arisen colloquially in some degree, much as the term was applied by the Count to the reliability of his troops. Perhaps the term itself may have been applied in the same sense to the reliability of German made swords, and somehow become affixed to this hilt style. It seems there are quite a number of these type terms applied to edged weapons, and might be interesting to develop a thread on a glossary with some etymology and history. All the best, Jim

6th May 2009, 04:41 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Sorry, Jim, The first paragraph in my previous reply is of course a quotation from your post but I somehow spoilt it to be marked as such. Michael