Please help to identify this dagger

Tatyana Dianova · 30th April 2009, 12:08 PM

Thank you for sharing this beautiful Kukri, DhaDha!
Well, I have a similar old North Indian Kukri, discussed previously here
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5908
but it looks and feels a bit different than the dagger in question… But you are right: it is definitely an example of cultural mix…

Jens Nordlunde · 30th April 2009, 04:45 PM

Sorry Tatyana, I have had no luck so far, but I feel sure I have seen a blade like the one you show, so I will go on looking.
Your dagger also gives me the feeling of north India and the boarding areas, but I am not sure where.
Jens

Tim Simmons · 30th April 2009, 05:08 PM

I had two of these with clear Nepalese possibly Tibetan stye scabbards. The blades were not as fancy but the same shape. Sadly the pictures are gone. A Canandian member known as "Jimpul" was the recipient of one perhaps he might be encouraged to post pictures if he still has it. The other one went to a non member.

Tatyana Dianova · 30th April 2009, 08:15 PM

I am very grateful for your help and efforts, many thanks

The pictures would be extremely useful...
Here is the picture of Afghani Kukris that Rod has kindly sent me today.

DhaDha · 1st May 2009, 03:12 PM

Definitely see the Afghan influence. These are all really nice pieces. Glad to see them.

Jim McDougall · 1st May 2009, 04:09 PM

Tatyana, it is wonderful to see you posting here again ! It seems like a very long time. A very attractive piece you have here, and the hilt is most interesting with the studded nail effect, reminds me of the Indian armour 'coat of a thousand nails'.

While I agree with the assessments toward the kukri genre, and that this does seem a hybrid form of weapon, I cannot help thinking of the variants of short swords that were seen in research years ago on what was then termed a Kurdish/Armenian yataghan. These were later termed 'Black Sea Knives' and were typically seen with horned pommel, the blade of more dramatic recurve and needle pointed much as the flyssa and Tatar ordynka's.
Later Ariel discovered these were actually termed 'Laz Bichagi' and from Ottoman regions in the mid to latter 19th century.

In the 1941 article, "Development of the Shashka" by Triikman & Jacobsen published in Copenhagen, there are a number of these recurved weapons illustrated as recurved 'yataghan' type swords, some with the horned pommel, some with standard hilt forms,but the recurve of the blade was distinct, and it seems the fullering was somewhat similar on some.

These were apparantly included in the work of a Hungarian author in an 1898 (?) narrative in which he described these groupings of 'Trancaucasian' swords using the term 'kardok' or something to that effect.
It has been years since I have seen this material, and I will try to see if I can retrace, but the images are somewhat vaguely seen in memory.

I cannot be certain, but even that fishtail pommel may have been on one.
I'll try to find the notes or info, and hopefully they 'made the cut' when we loaded into the bookmobile

In any case, I think this may possibly be one of this type of quite rarely found Transcaucasian weapons.

All the best,
Jim

30th April 2009, 12:08 PM	#1
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 736	Thank you for sharing this beautiful Kukri, DhaDha! Well, I have a similar old North Indian Kukri, discussed previously here http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5908 but it looks and feels a bit different than the dagger in question… But you are right: it is definitely an example of cultural mix… Attached Images

30th April 2009, 08:15 PM	#4
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 736	I am very grateful for your help and efforts, many thanks The pictures would be extremely useful... Here is the picture of Afghani Kukris that Rod has kindly sent me today. Attached Images

30th April 2009, 04:45 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Sorry Tatyana, I have had no luck so far, but I feel sure I have seen a blade like the one you show, so I will go on looking. Your dagger also gives me the feeling of north India and the boarding areas, but I am not sure where. Jens

30th April 2009, 05:08 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	I had two of these with clear Nepalese possibly Tibetan stye scabbards. The blades were not as fancy but the same shape. Sadly the pictures are gone. A Canandian member known as "Jimpul" was the recipient of one perhaps he might be encouraged to post pictures if he still has it. The other one went to a non member.

1st May 2009, 03:12 PM	#5
DhaDha Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 178	Definitely see the Afghan influence. These are all really nice pieces. Glad to see them.

1st May 2009, 04:09 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Tatyana, it is wonderful to see you posting here again ! It seems like a very long time. A very attractive piece you have here, and the hilt is most interesting with the studded nail effect, reminds me of the Indian armour 'coat of a thousand nails'. While I agree with the assessments toward the kukri genre, and that this does seem a hybrid form of weapon, I cannot help thinking of the variants of short swords that were seen in research years ago on what was then termed a Kurdish/Armenian yataghan. These were later termed 'Black Sea Knives' and were typically seen with horned pommel, the blade of more dramatic recurve and needle pointed much as the flyssa and Tatar ordynka's. Later Ariel discovered these were actually termed 'Laz Bichagi' and from Ottoman regions in the mid to latter 19th century. In the 1941 article, "Development of the Shashka" by Triikman & Jacobsen published in Copenhagen, there are a number of these recurved weapons illustrated as recurved 'yataghan' type swords, some with the horned pommel, some with standard hilt forms,but the recurve of the blade was distinct, and it seems the fullering was somewhat similar on some. These were apparantly included in the work of a Hungarian author in an 1898 (?) narrative in which he described these groupings of 'Trancaucasian' swords using the term 'kardok' or something to that effect. It has been years since I have seen this material, and I will try to see if I can retrace, but the images are somewhat vaguely seen in memory. I cannot be certain, but even that fishtail pommel may have been on one. I'll try to find the notes or info, and hopefully they 'made the cut' when we loaded into the bookmobile In any case, I think this may possibly be one of this type of quite rarely found Transcaucasian weapons. All the best, Jim