Pakem and Keris

[David]

Thanks for you opinion on this subject Alan. As Rick points out sometimes opinions are the best we have to go on.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

So, by the mid 19th century the keris in Jawa was well and truly a magical object, as Europeans understood magic, whereas previously it had been a power object as that was understood within the framework of traditional Javanese society.

Could you go into this difference a bit further Alan. I think it might be helpful to more definitively establish what we mean by "magical object" vs. "power object".

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

We can find examples of what we now refer to as "keris art" in keris that date to the 17th century , and prior to this, however, I doubt that at that time we were looking at an art form , but rather at art being used to ornament an object that still had a number of practical uses.

So practical purposes would be, of course, as a physical weapon and on a royal level as a way to hold, assign and distribute power. Can we extend this list further?

[A. G. Maisey]

By "power object" I mean something that is related to a power, or a level of power, within a unit of human organization, thus something which symbolizes, represents or indicates a phenomenon external to the object itself.

By "magical object" I mean something that is believed to be related to occurrences that are not easy to explain by conventional reasoning, thus something which contains within itself the ability to cause or contribute to phenomenon in either a direct or an indirect way.

The primary practical purpose of a keris in the Jawa of 14th to 17th centuries appears to have been as the symbol of the masculine; there are repeated references to this in old inscriptions and literature. To extend the list past this we need to consider time and place. In my original post I was thinking in terms of Mataram and Majapahit, but to produce a comprehensive accounting of all the possible purposes and functions of the keris we need to extend the time frame from its first appearance up until the present day.

The door is open:- who wishes to enter?

[Jussi M.]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The door is open:- who wishes to enter?

I am game.

[David]

So what about legends surrounding the keris Taming Sari and Hang Tuah. I believe this story is supposed to take place in the 15th century. This is a keris which i would say was supposed to be embued with "magickal" properties.
So was this legend thought up thought up much later or is it an early example of viewing the keris as a "magical object".

[A. G. Maisey]

The taming sari legend is Malay, I'm talking Jawa.

A legend.

Do we know the earliest version of this legend?

Yes, it refers to events which supposedly took place in the 15th century, but when did the legend arise? Do we know when it first appeared? Do we know the original version? Do we know how it developed? Any inscribed plates, stone inscriptions, lontars?

I am not very well versed in Malay folk beliefs, but my bet is that the taming sari legend probably came into being around the beginning of the 19th century, maybe even later.

Quite frankly, I would prefer to disregard this type of discussion. I do not find it very enlightening , nor productive.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The taming sari legend is Malay, I'm talking Jawa.

A legend.

Do we know the earliest version of this legend?

Yes, it refers to events which supposedly took place in the 15th century, but when did the legend arise? Do we know when it first appeared? Do we know the original version? Do we know how it developed? Any inscribed plates, stone inscriptions, lontars?

I am not very well versed in Malay folk beliefs, but my bet is that the taming sari legend probably came into being around the beginning of the 19th century, maybe even later.

Quite frankly, I would prefer to disregard this type of discussion. I do not find it very enlightening , nor productive.

Yes , i realize this is a Malay legend. Of course, according to the legend Taming Sari was a keris from the Javanese kingdom of Mojopahit so it must of adhered to the pakem of that kingdom.
Alan, i am not sure what you mean exactly by "this type of discussion". You brought the concept of "magical object" vs "power object" into this discussion. I am merely following that thread and trying to understand when the concept of the keris as a "magical object" developed. I do realize this is a tangent from the original topic, but personally i would find such information very enlightening and productive.

[Jussi M.]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

By "power object" I mean something that is related to a power, or a level of power, within a unit of human organization, thus something which symbolizes, represents or indicates a phenomenon external to the object itself.

Mr. Maisey - above you are referring to the keris as an object that bears or symbolizes powers which are external to the keris itself. As I have understood it the keris is mostly a personal item, yet you are referring it also as a "totem" item tied to a group of people or an organization that unites them.

Could you please tell what kinds of powers in your opinion can the Javanese keris symbolize or represent and what roles does it bear when looked upon from this perspective either from the viewpoint of the man in possession of the keris or the society in which he lives in? You may choose the period of time in which your answer is based upon freely.

Thanks,

J.

[A. G. Maisey]

David, what I mean by this "this type of discussion" is the mixing of legend and myth with historical relativity.

Legend and myth are by their very nature flexible entities:- they can and do change generationally, thus the legend that our grandparents heard is very likely different in some respects to the one we read when we throw the question into google. When these differences extend over long periods of time, and are additionally encapsulated within an oral tradition, their value for historical reference is somewhat more than doubtful.

The court babads of Jawa are often confused with legend by some people, and with history by other people, and in fact, seem to be a mix of both, but for the researcher, the big advantage with the babads is that they are written, and can--- to a degree--- be taken back to a point of origin, permitting analysis. We cannot do this with a legend or myth, or other folk tale.

As to affixing a point in time for the development of the keris as a magical object, this would be a good topic for serious research, as I do not believe that this specific topic has ever been seriously tackled. We can get some sort of an idea of this from the old literature. In early Javanese literature the keris seems to be represented as a power object, and with some talismanic properties, but it does not seem to be represented as a "fly through the air, find its own way home" object. My own gut feeling is that this pure magical character of the keris probably did not take hold until well into the 19th century. It may have had a begining during Kartasura---very big "may"--- but I really think that in Jawa it probably did not become "magic" until "Javaneseness" increased during the 19th century in a reaction to Dutch oppression.As I said:- green field for a serious researcher:- I believe that this is something that might be able to be pretty well nailed down.

Jussi, the keris can fulfil a number of roles; it is not just a single thing with a single character, and whatever characters it has can change over time. In early Jawa---C 14th century---- it was referred to as "the symbol of a man". Undoubtedly it was, and remains so, but it was also a weapon. In the hands of a waterfront thug, how much of a symbol was it? In the hands of a palace courtier, how much of a weapon was it?

By the early 19th century in Jawa the keris had become pretty much an item of dress. It was still occasionally used as a weapon, but anybody who could afford to would carry a keris as a part of formal dress.

In my "Naga" paper I looked at the power associated with the keris, and of course here we are talking of the pusaka keris, both royal and of a clan. Briefly it is the power to bond present custodian with past custodians and with the clan members of the present generation.A clan nexus if you will.

In the context of royal gift to a representative of the royal authority, it binds the king--- God's representative on earth--- to the minor ruler or governor, and the governed populace to the governor, and thus to the ruler. The ruler represents God, God is the cosmos, thus it bonds the lowliest subject to God. A bonding agent, thus a power object, and in a different dimension , representative of the Naga Basuki, and perhaps even holding the essence of the Naga Basuki.

The primary power of the keris is its binding character. Relate this to its acknowledged symbolic status as the symbol of masculinity. It is not difficult to understand why the keris became such a power object in old Jawa.

As Javanese society developed and absorbed differing influences, the original concepts associated with the keris mutated from the select knowledge held by the keris smiths and the religious leaders into folk beliefs. These folk beliefs have now replaced the original beliefs associated with the keris. Nothing strange about this:- time changes all things.

I don't think this is the place to produce a list of all the possibilities in respect of the power concept, nor the magic concept, but working from what I have written above, it is possible to find all of these answers in already published works.

[David]

Sorry if i was not clear enough Alan. I have no intention of leading this conversation it a jumbled mix of myth and legend with historical relativity. We are in complete agreement here. It may well be true that we might never be able to establish when this legend as we know it today took hold. I am not aware of any writings from the times that might help to nail this down, but i also do not know that such evidence does not exist. So i was just poising the question. Maybe someone else on this forum might have better knowledge as to when this legend was first written down.

[A. G. Maisey]

Understood David.

However, we would need to consider more than just when the Taming Sari story is first in hard copy.It would very probably have been a part of verbal tradition before it was ever recorded, and to nail that down would be more than a little difficult.

Legends, myths, folk stories, and most particularly the stories that a people tells to its children, are wonderful indicators of the values of a society, but I fear that they are not really of much use in historical inquiry. A social barometer if you will, rather than an historical one.

History itself is often open to question --- we all know all that "victors write the history books", which makes of history a set of beliefs agreed upon by most people, but a very great part of what we agree history to be can be proven to be fact. It is very often very difficult to find any fact at all in a folk tale.

[Jussi M.]

Mr. Maisey,

thank you for your explanation. As I am a mere simple man I like to keep things as simple as possible so that I can better understand them. The way you described the kerises role as a power object and a binding instrument sounds --- to me --- not much different from how the Crucifix was used and seen in ancient times amongst the true believers of Christianity. - Different culture yet fulfilling basically the same purpose within that culture.

Yes?

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Understood David.

However, we would need to consider more than just when the Taming Sari story is first in hard copy.It would very probably have been a part of verbal tradition before it was ever recorded, and to nail that down would be more than a little difficult.

Legends, myths, folk stories, and most particularly the stories that a people tells to its children, are wonderful indicators of the values of a society, but I fear that they are not really of much use in historical inquiry. A social barometer if you will, rather than an historical one.

History itself is often open to question --- we all know all that "victors write the history books", which makes of history a set of beliefs agreed upon by most people, but a very great part of what we agree history to be can be proven to be fact. It is very often very difficult to find any fact at all in a folk tale.

Well yes Alan, but i am not looking for any fact or historical accountability in the legend of Taming Sari. My question is not if this story really happened, but when the people started telling the story with a magickal element to it. I am just trying to see if it is possible that the idea of the magickal properties of the keris started at an early time in it's development than the 19th century. It may not be possible to nail this down at all without written evidence as i would think it would be impossible to verify how a legend was told at any given time in an oral tradition. But if there is an early written copy that might give us some ideas.