Ceylon Piha-kaetta (?)

David · 24th April 2009, 08:05 PM

Well Rand, i don't know about the Ceylon origin, but it certainly ain't no Piha Kaetta.

rand · 24th April 2009, 09:15 PM

David,

You may be as puzzled as I am on this dagger. If you go to the link to Banhams and and click on flash version you can enlarge image to see detail much better.

Interesting to note that Bhutan did similar silver work in 17th-18th centurys on their dagger handles and scabbards..... One thing that puzzles me is the seemingly low grade gold, it appears shiney like 14k in the middle of the handle, the gold around the gems seems a wash'gilt over silver and below the gem layer maybe a higher carot gold that seems darker and less lustre....

rand

Gavin Nugent · 24th April 2009, 09:37 PM

I certainly noticed it whilst viewing the catalogue, quite a striking item.
It is hard to remember every thread posted but Spiral offered up a dagger in similar style a little while back?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7884

Sri Lanka was mentioned as a posibility?

Perhaps Spiral can repost an image as they are now gone.

Certainly very nice.

Gav

PS the auction house wasn't very helpful this time around, I asked for about a dozen images that were not online and it fell on deaf ears.

VANDOO · 25th April 2009, 01:26 AM

IT CERTIANLY LOOKS A LOT LIKE THE DAGGER IN THE FORUM POST.
IF IT WAS PERHAPS ONE OF OUR MEMBERS WILL HAVE PLENTY OF CASH AVAILABLE FOR FURTHER COLLECTING.

RSWORD · 25th April 2009, 04:38 AM

A very interesting piece and quite worthy of research and discussion. While I have nothing concrete to add let me throw out some observations to add to the theoretical pot. The first thing I noticed was the interesting "cant" of the handle. When you look strictly at the outline of the handle from the gem'ed ring upwards, it reminds me of the overall shape of a keris handle. The gem'ed ring has a certain keris mendak(sp?) flavor as well. The second thing I noticed was the interlocked figures in the central panel. Reminds me, along with a few of the other decorative themes, to carved ivory handles on dha daggers and swords. I have seen that very theme, which may be a common religious theme and not peculiar to SE Asia, on those nicely carved ivory handles. Thailand is a region quite familiar with keris and dha and toss in some Western influences in the quillons and the blade and you have yourself a possible candidate. Just can't get the Ceylonese connection.

Jim McDougall · 25th April 2009, 08:40 AM

I'm with Rand and Rick in struggling to see the Ceylonese connection here, and the later blade which has nothing to do with Sri Lankan knives as far as I can see really adds to the distortion.
In focusing on the hilt, I agree with Rick in noticing the cant of the pommel which does correspond to the rather recurved styling of most pihaya hilts.
In that sense this would classify as a pihaya, which is described as a small ornate knife worn for decoration at the waist.

I am curious what the original blade must have looked like, as the pihaya kaetta blades were heavy and with extensive work on the back that usually followed en suite with the hilt. The upturned European style guard would not seem to lend well to that rather graceful effect.

The description of the chasework noting European style cherubs within the traditional themes along with the European style guard suggests perhaps this may have been a diplomatic item. Naturally, as Deraniyagala (1942) notes on p.110, "...ornate daggers were presented to individuals of royal esteem" . It may be that this item may have been produced by 'the Four Workshops' maintained by the kings in Kandy, influenced by the ever present Dutch and Portuguese powers, and which I understand ceased production in the early 19th century.

I would note that without the Ceylonese association specified, I would not look for that connection, but having been mentioned, these thoughts are mentioned toward possibilities for the unusual nature of the item.

All best regards,
Jim

ariel · 25th April 2009, 01:57 PM

I would not have guessed Ceylonese either, fail to see the importance of it and would not dream of bidding on it, but what the heck!
Bidders' frenzy took over and the seller cried all the way to the bank.
Obviously, bidders at Bonhams were much more sophisticated and knowledgeable than all of us combined. Good luck to the winner!
BTW, economists have a term: winner's curse. Somebody calculated that the true value of an auctioned piece is the mean of all individual bids. Thus, the winner always overpays. Statistically, of course.

24th April 2009, 09:37 PM	#3
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Hmmm I certainly noticed it whilst viewing the catalogue, quite a striking item. It is hard to remember every thread posted but Spiral offered up a dagger in similar style a little while back? http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7884 Sri Lanka was mentioned as a posibility? Perhaps Spiral can repost an image as they are now gone. Certainly very nice. Gav PS the auction house wasn't very helpful this time around, I asked for about a dozen images that were not online and it fell on deaf ears.

24th April 2009, 08:05 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Well Rand, i don't know about the Ceylon origin, but it certainly ain't no Piha Kaetta.

24th April 2009, 09:15 PM	#2
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	David, You may be as puzzled as I am on this dagger. If you go to the link to Banhams and and click on flash version you can enlarge image to see detail much better. Interesting to note that Bhutan did similar silver work in 17th-18th centurys on their dagger handles and scabbards..... One thing that puzzles me is the seemingly low grade gold, it appears shiney like 14k in the middle of the handle, the gold around the gems seems a wash'gilt over silver and below the gem layer maybe a higher carot gold that seems darker and less lustre.... rand

25th April 2009, 01:26 AM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	IT CERTIANLY LOOKS A LOT LIKE THE DAGGER IN THE FORUM POST. IF IT WAS PERHAPS ONE OF OUR MEMBERS WILL HAVE PLENTY OF CASH AVAILABLE FOR FURTHER COLLECTING.

25th April 2009, 04:38 AM	#5
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,086	A very interesting piece and quite worthy of research and discussion. While I have nothing concrete to add let me throw out some observations to add to the theoretical pot. The first thing I noticed was the interesting "cant" of the handle. When you look strictly at the outline of the handle from the gem'ed ring upwards, it reminds me of the overall shape of a keris handle. The gem'ed ring has a certain keris mendak(sp?) flavor as well. The second thing I noticed was the interlocked figures in the central panel. Reminds me, along with a few of the other decorative themes, to carved ivory handles on dha daggers and swords. I have seen that very theme, which may be a common religious theme and not peculiar to SE Asia, on those nicely carved ivory handles. Thailand is a region quite familiar with keris and dha and toss in some Western influences in the quillons and the blade and you have yourself a possible candidate. Just can't get the Ceylonese connection.

25th April 2009, 08:40 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	I'm with Rand and Rick in struggling to see the Ceylonese connection here, and the later blade which has nothing to do with Sri Lankan knives as far as I can see really adds to the distortion. In focusing on the hilt, I agree with Rick in noticing the cant of the pommel which does correspond to the rather recurved styling of most pihaya hilts. In that sense this would classify as a pihaya, which is described as a small ornate knife worn for decoration at the waist. I am curious what the original blade must have looked like, as the pihaya kaetta blades were heavy and with extensive work on the back that usually followed en suite with the hilt. The upturned European style guard would not seem to lend well to that rather graceful effect. The description of the chasework noting European style cherubs within the traditional themes along with the European style guard suggests perhaps this may have been a diplomatic item. Naturally, as Deraniyagala (1942) notes on p.110, "...ornate daggers were presented to individuals of royal esteem" . It may be that this item may have been produced by 'the Four Workshops' maintained by the kings in Kandy, influenced by the ever present Dutch and Portuguese powers, and which I understand ceased production in the early 19th century. I would note that without the Ceylonese association specified, I would not look for that connection, but having been mentioned, these thoughts are mentioned toward possibilities for the unusual nature of the item. All best regards, Jim

25th April 2009, 01:57 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I would not have guessed Ceylonese either, fail to see the importance of it and would not dream of bidding on it, but what the heck! Bidders' frenzy took over and the seller cried all the way to the bank. Obviously, bidders at Bonhams were much more sophisticated and knowledgeable than all of us combined. Good luck to the winner! BTW, economists have a term: winner's curse. Somebody calculated that the true value of an auctioned piece is the mean of all individual bids. Thus, the winner always overpays. Statistically, of course.