A question about boarding pikes

fernando · 16th April 2009, 08:56 PM

Model 1820 is posted in a bizarre attachment; i hope you can open it. Otherwise, just tell.
Fernando

M ELEY · 17th April 2009, 04:16 AM

Thanks, Fernando, for posting these important pics. Material on boarding pikes, much like other naval weapons, is hard to find. My piece is much more primitive, not like those made for the Sapnish naval vessels, but more like what you might see on a privateer or merchant ship in the New World. It's blade is more leaf-shaped, placing it in the pre-1800 time frame. I will attempt to post a pic soon, as I do wish to get others input on it. Thanks again for posting those pics. I've heard of, but never seen the double-headed pikes (chuzo). You'd have to be pretty daring to have to face one of them while clambering over the rail of a ship!!

celtan · 17th April 2009, 05:18 AM

Chuzos are simply metal spikes attached to poles, not necessarily a double headed lance. Often times, a bayonet attached to a pole would be called a chuzo.

They made poor weapon choices against a bayonetted musket, and were mostly used by irregulars guarding supply depots, or within cities and towns by "Urban Guards"...

Best

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Thanks, Fernando, for posting these important pics. Material on boarding pikes, much like other naval weapons, is hard to find. My piece is much more primitive, not like those made for the Sapnish naval vessels, but more like what you might see on a privateer or merchant ship in the New World. It's blade is more leaf-shaped, placing it in the pre-1800 time frame. I will attempt to post a pic soon, as I do wish to get others input on it. Thanks again for posting those pics. I've heard of, but never seen the double-headed pikes (chuzo). You'd have to be pretty daring to have to face one of them while clambering over the rail of a ship!!

M ELEY · 17th April 2009, 05:32 AM

Thanks for coming in on this, Celtan. I was wondering if these were more in the pike or lance catagory. I know both existed in New Spain. The point with the 4 sided head second down on Fernando's posted thread looks like the detached head of another piece that I have (not the discussed pike I started with) sans the straps. Were these points universally used on both pikes and lances by the Spanish, or were there any differences?
Will try and post pics of the pike soon...

celtan · 17th April 2009, 02:08 PM

You are most welcome, we are here to learn what we can from each other.

: )

Please notice the "chuzo" presented here is of 19th C make, and measures almost seven feet, which is too short for a "true" pike, like those used by the Tercios. OTOH, just like pikes, chuzos were not designed to be thrown, like a true lance or Roman pilum would.

Then, many "lances" were never meant to be thrown, like the ones used in jousting.

This type of weapon is designed to be held, and for stabbing, like a japanese yari.

In Spain, often times the terms pikes and lances are used interchangeably, although if it has a hatchet or hook at its end, it's invariably called a "Pica"(Pike).

I'd like to point out that "chuzo" is a word with negative connotations in regards to quality, sugesting something cheaply made. I fact, any piece of wood may be called a chuzo...

Best

Manuel Luis

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Thanks for coming in on this, Celtan. I was wondering if these were more in the pike or lance catagory. I know both existed in New Spain. The point with the 4 sided head second down on Fernando's posted thread looks like the detached head of another piece that I have (not the discussed pike I started with) sans the straps. Were these points universally used on both pikes and lances by the Spanish, or were there any differences?
Will try and post pics of the pike soon...

fernando · 17th April 2009, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

Chuzos are simply metal spikes attached to poles, not necessarily a double headed lance. Often times, a bayonet attached to a pole would be called a chuzo...

Furthermore, in a vulgarized sense, anything spiky may be called a chuço (portuguese for chuzo). Even (closed) umbrellas are often called chuços by local country people. And so are called determined agricultural implements. After all, the first pole arms that arose from and with the farmers that were mobilized to go into war, in the middle ages, were the chuços, derived from the scythe family tools.

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

The point with the 4 sided head second down on Fernando's posted thread looks like the detached head of another piece that I have (not the discussed pike I started with) sans the straps. Were these points universally used on both pikes and lances by the Spanish, or were there any differences?

For the little i have seen, i am convinced that all round, three sided and four sided variations, with and without side straps, were used in pikes and lances by many a nation. Experts may confirm.
One thing i have difficulty in distinguishing is the difference between pikes (or chuços) and lances (or spears). For a start, we don't have a translation for the term 'spear' in portuguese ... and neither have the Spaniards, i think. Would it sometimes the difference be the length of the haft, considering that the earliest pikes had imense lengths? Or does the difference (also) reside the blade shape ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Will try and post pics of the pike soon...

Forgive me for the impertinence, Mark; if by any chance the issue is any conflict with attaching pictures in the Forum, i am at your disposal to post them, once you email them to me:
fernandoviana@netcabo.pt

celtan · 17th April 2009, 05:22 PM

Hi Nando!

In Spanish, a throwing spear would be a jabalina, or javelin in French.

Saludos

Manolo

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

One thing i have difficulty in distinguishing is the difference between pikes (or chuços) and lances (or spears). For a start, we don't have a translation for the term 'spear' in portuguese ... and neither have the Spaniards, i think. Would it sometimes the difference be the length of the haft, considering that the earliest pikes had imense lengths? Or does the difference (also) reside the blade shape ?
fernandoviana@netcabo.pt

M ELEY · 19th April 2009, 05:18 AM

Thank you gentlemen, for your input. I am very thankful for your information and I hope for my part that I didn't offend with a vulgar word!

Actually, Fernando, it's just about me finding the time. I might take you up on that offer if I find that I can't post. Perhaps my daughter might have to help me! She's good at that sort of thing!

Gonzalo G · 26th April 2009, 07:33 AM

Although I agree in general terms with the definitions of ‘pica’ and ‘chuzo’, I don’t agree in restricting the meaning of ‘lanza’ to a weapon not used to throw. I think the word ‘lance’ comes from the french languaje and it can have other meaning than the seemingly apparent word in spanish. At first, I feel some restraint in answering to this point, as the word ‘lanza’ in spanish has the same meaning than the word ‘spear’, but including also the meaning on ‘lance’. In other words, Fernando is right in the sense that we don’t have an exclusive generic word to designate only the very long shafted weapon used by cavalry mounted soldiers or knights, but we do have an equivalent word for ‘spear’, and this is the word ‘venablo’, that is, a shorter thrusting and throwing weapon. The word ‘lanza’ in spanish also designates a thrusting and throwing weapon, and its main difference with the venablo seems to be the lenght of the shaft, even though I have never found the respective measures to have a clear understanding of this limits.

According with the Royal Dictionary of the Academy of Spanish Language, the higher authority in this matter, the word ‘lanza’ is not defined in relation with being a thrusting or a throwing weapon, but by its general physical characteristics. I also checked the Salvat Encyclopedia in 12 volumes, because as I always understood, the lanza was indistinctly a thrusting or/and a throwing weapon, and I wanted to be quite sure. I also did not find this differentiating characteristic. Furthermore, the spanish literature and history is full of references in this same direction. Not to be far apart of our subject, we find references to another type of weapon taken by the spaniards from Africa: the lanza gineta or lanza jineta. You can find some references here:

http://xenophongroup.com/EMW/article001.htm

I think it is a shorter shafted weapon compared to the used previously by the cavalry iberic soldier, more longer and less appropriated to the more lightning attacks ‘a la gineta’, that is, to the style of cavalry fight introduced by the berbers into what now is Spain. This older versions, for reasons related with the length of the shaft, were not apt as a throwing weapons. There is even a treatise about fighting ‘a la gineta’, written by a knigh who was member of one of the military spanish cavalry orders, which I previously noted in another thread related with the jineta sword.

I also don’t agree that the word ‘jabalina’ would be more appropriated to designate a war weapon used to throw. This last weapon was used mainly as a hunting weapon and latter as a sport weapon, like the used on the olympic games (javelin). Sometimes is used meaning the weapon the romans called ‘pilium’. With this meaning, jabalina could designate a war weapon, but with some special characteristics, mainly a long narrow point and a short shaft. But there are also a bit longer weapons with wide points, sometimes lanceolated, used as thrusting or/and throwing weapon. It must be pointed out that the word ‘lanza’ in spanish also means ‘throw’, and to throw a stone would be said ‘lanzar una piedra’, thus the word used to name this weapon. In spanish we also have another word taken form the berbers: ‘azagaya’, which is used to designate a short war weapon, equivalent to the jabalina.

The weapon with long shaft ended in a pike and with an axe at its side, specially in the form of a half moon, is called in spanish ‘alabarda’, a halberd.

You can consult online the Royal Dictionary of the Academy of Spanish Language, and another dicionaries in spanish, and translate them using also online instruments, as Babel Fish and the one provided by Google:

http://www.rae.es/rae.html

Regards

Gonzalo

17th April 2009, 05:32 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,158	Thanks for coming in on this, Celtan. I was wondering if these were more in the pike or lance catagory. I know both existed in New Spain. The point with the 4 sided head second down on Fernando's posted thread looks like the detached head of another piece that I have (not the discussed pike I started with) sans the straps. Were these points universally used on both pikes and lances by the Spanish, or were there any differences? Will try and post pics of the pike soon... Last edited by M ELEY; 17th April 2009 at 05:40 AM. Reason: addition

16th April 2009, 08:56 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Model 1820 is posted in a bizarre attachment; i hope you can open it. Otherwise, just tell. Fernando

17th April 2009, 04:16 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,158	Thanks, Fernando, for posting these important pics. Material on boarding pikes, much like other naval weapons, is hard to find. My piece is much more primitive, not like those made for the Sapnish naval vessels, but more like what you might see on a privateer or merchant ship in the New World. It's blade is more leaf-shaped, placing it in the pre-1800 time frame. I will attempt to post a pic soon, as I do wish to get others input on it. Thanks again for posting those pics. I've heard of, but never seen the double-headed pikes (chuzo). You'd have to be pretty daring to have to face one of them while clambering over the rail of a ship!!

19th April 2009, 05:18 AM	#8
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,158	Thank you gentlemen, for your input. I am very thankful for your information and I hope for my part that I didn't offend with a vulgar word! Actually, Fernando, it's just about me finding the time. I might take you up on that offer if I find that I can't post. Perhaps my daughter might have to help me! She's good at that sort of thing!

26th April 2009, 07:33 AM	#9
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Although I agree in general terms with the definitions of ‘pica’ and ‘chuzo’, I don’t agree in restricting the meaning of ‘lanza’ to a weapon not used to throw. I think the word ‘lance’ comes from the french languaje and it can have other meaning than the seemingly apparent word in spanish. At first, I feel some restraint in answering to this point, as the word ‘lanza’ in spanish has the same meaning than the word ‘spear’, but including also the meaning on ‘lance’. In other words, Fernando is right in the sense that we don’t have an exclusive generic word to designate only the very long shafted weapon used by cavalry mounted soldiers or knights, but we do have an equivalent word for ‘spear’, and this is the word ‘venablo’, that is, a shorter thrusting and throwing weapon. The word ‘lanza’ in spanish also designates a thrusting and throwing weapon, and its main difference with the venablo seems to be the lenght of the shaft, even though I have never found the respective measures to have a clear understanding of this limits. According with the Royal Dictionary of the Academy of Spanish Language, the higher authority in this matter, the word ‘lanza’ is not defined in relation with being a thrusting or a throwing weapon, but by its general physical characteristics. I also checked the Salvat Encyclopedia in 12 volumes, because as I always understood, the lanza was indistinctly a thrusting or/and a throwing weapon, and I wanted to be quite sure. I also did not find this differentiating characteristic. Furthermore, the spanish literature and history is full of references in this same direction. Not to be far apart of our subject, we find references to another type of weapon taken by the spaniards from Africa: the lanza gineta or lanza jineta. You can find some references here: http://xenophongroup.com/EMW/article001.htm I think it is a shorter shafted weapon compared to the used previously by the cavalry iberic soldier, more longer and less appropriated to the more lightning attacks ‘a la gineta’, that is, to the style of cavalry fight introduced by the berbers into what now is Spain. This older versions, for reasons related with the length of the shaft, were not apt as a throwing weapons. There is even a treatise about fighting ‘a la gineta’, written by a knigh who was member of one of the military spanish cavalry orders, which I previously noted in another thread related with the jineta sword. I also don’t agree that the word ‘jabalina’ would be more appropriated to designate a war weapon used to throw. This last weapon was used mainly as a hunting weapon and latter as a sport weapon, like the used on the olympic games (javelin). Sometimes is used meaning the weapon the romans called ‘pilium’. With this meaning, jabalina could designate a war weapon, but with some special characteristics, mainly a long narrow point and a short shaft. But there are also a bit longer weapons with wide points, sometimes lanceolated, used as thrusting or/and throwing weapon. It must be pointed out that the word ‘lanza’ in spanish also means ‘throw’, and to throw a stone would be said ‘lanzar una piedra’, thus the word used to name this weapon. In spanish we also have another word taken form the berbers: ‘azagaya’, which is used to designate a short war weapon, equivalent to the jabalina. The weapon with long shaft ended in a pike and with an axe at its side, specially in the form of a half moon, is called in spanish ‘alabarda’, a halberd. You can consult online the Royal Dictionary of the Academy of Spanish Language, and another dicionaries in spanish, and translate them using also online instruments, as Babel Fish and the one provided by Google: http://www.rae.es/rae.html Regards Gonzalo