A 13 C. Crusader sword from the Holy Land

Jim McDougall · 13th April 2009, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stekemest

Hi Jim,
I don't know if I understand your question correctly (my English is not the best), but if you ask why so few swords are found on battlefields: after the battle, victorious soldiers and peasants from all around came to the battlefield and collected everything that was worth something or could somehow be used, especially undamaged armour and weapons. That's why swords are often missing.

Hi Stekemest,
Thank you so much for responding, and actually, your English is pretty impeccable as far as I can notice. I do understand about the collecting of battlefield pickups which has been common practice as long as there has been warfare, weapons were valuable and hard to come by, so there was actually a sort of cottage industry selling 'surplus'.

What I was wondering is about sites which were either relatively remote, or in desert regions such as the one we are discussing, where its deposit was not necessarily from battle, but perhaps one of a small group was enroute to or from campaign or skirmishing action. As I mentioned, the archaeologist speaking was discussing a find where both human remains and horse were found together. There was no sword or weapon found, so as discussed, these were likely plundered.

As far as I have understood, the only crusades period swords that have been found were either from those that became trophies, some collected from museums, and some from churches, burials etc. I am just trying to discover whether anyone is aware of any excavation, crusades related, that may have uncovered swords, weapons or armour.

Also, I am hoping that someone who was present in 2003 might recall details of the talk given by the archaeologist on finds from crusades areas, I think it might have been Tyre.

Thank you so much for answering!!! It means a lot!!

All the best,
Jim

Oriental-Arms · 15th April 2009, 06:15 AM

Hi Jim

The lady name was Kate Rafael and the title of her talk was: "Archeology of battle field", specifically related to the excavations in "Ateret" a small crusader fortress on the Jordan river bank. I will call her to find out if she has a copy of her presentation.

Other exacavation related to this period were made in the old city of Acre and many other fortresses, but to the best of my knowlege only few remains of arms and armor were found: armor parts, spear heads mace head, many arrowheads and the like. Not a single sword.

Jim McDougall · 15th April 2009, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oriental-Arms

Hi Jim

The lady name was Kate Rafael and the title of her talk was: "Archeology of battle field", specifically related to the excavations in "Ateret" a small crusader fortress on the Jordan river bank. I will call her to find out if she has a copy of her presentation.

Other exacavation related to this period were made in the old city of Acre and many other fortresses, but to the best of my knowlege only few remains of arms and armor were found: armor parts, spear heads mace head, many arrowheads and the like. Not a single sword.

Thank you so much Artzi!!! I really do appreciate that very much, as well as refreshing my memory....I could not find the notes!
This sword you have shared here is by far one of the most important I have seen, and I look forward to more information as can be revealed with more research. It couldn't have found a better home.

All the very best,
Jim

broadaxe · 15th April 2009, 10:25 AM

To add Artzi's post, Ateret is the modern name to Vadum Iacob, a Templar outpost on the road to Damascus, its history is well documented. Here is a link to the excavation page: http://vadumiacob.huji.ac.il/
I have all the official inventory of edge weapon artifacts (documented crusader period) from the Antiquity Authority, and there are only about two dozens of them, mostly fragments. Two full swords were recovered from under the sea and they are totally encrusted in marine deposit, another important sword lacking its cross guard but do have its original wooden plank scabbard; it has been on loan for the past several year to the L'institut du Monde Arab in Paris. I'm aware of several other partial items in private hands, very few.

Spunjer · 15th April 2009, 03:00 PM

how much does the sword weigh, artzi?
thanks for posting!

Jim McDougall · 15th April 2009, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broadaxe

To add Artzi's post, Ateret is the modern name to Vadum Iacob, a Templar outpost on the road to Damascus, its history is well documented. Here is a link to the excavation page: http://vadumiacob.huji.ac.il/
I have all the official inventory of edge weapon artifacts (documented crusader period) from the Antiquity Authority, and there are only about two dozens of them, mostly fragments. Two full swords were recovered from under the sea and they are totally encrusted in marine deposit, another important sword lacking its cross guard but do have its original wooden plank scabbard; it has been on loan for the past several year to the L'institut du Monde Arab in Paris. I'm aware of several other partial items in private hands, very few.

Thank you so much for posting the additional link and information Broadaxe. Extremely helpful ! This is such a fascinating sword, and the more I look at it , the more I want to learn about the archaeology of the crusades.
It seems topics like this are always sort of present, but one gets so busy in the maelstrom of so many daily queries and subjects, something this monumental seems to get put off.
The inspiration here is compelling!

All best regards,
Jim

P.S. Spunjer, good to see you posting here. Havent seen you for a while

cornelistromp · 15th April 2009, 07:19 PM

Ewart Oakeshott has a very nice theory about find places:

quote "it is necessary to say a word about the places at which swords have been found. to be able to say that a certain sword was found on the site of a certain battle, thereby providing a firm terminus post quem date, is of no use at all. If half-a-dozen swords,an Axe or two, dozens of arrow heads and many spears, were to be found on a battle site,this would be evidence.
But it never happens ; it is only the isolated sword that is generally found in a stream or a pond near the battle-site. After any battle, all the debris of value,-and swords above all weapons were of great value, as well as being easily portable-was collected up; all the Armour, clothes,jewelery or any other move able property left upon the dead was stripped off before the bodies were put into pits.................so it must be with so many medieval swords found on or near places where a battle is known to have been fought; but on the sites of great well known battles-Hastings, Evesham, Bouvines, Crecy, Mauron, Sempach,Agincourt,Beauge, Patay,Mont'Lhery,Nancy, Marignano-swords have not been found at all. I believe that any note that a sword was found "near the site of the battle of X" has to be taken with rather more than a pinch of salt. Unquote

broadaxe · 16th April 2009, 07:55 AM

Jim, you may want to look into this:
http://books.google.com/books?id=a4R...snum=1#PPP1,M1

This book is the most up-to-date single volume about the entire subject. Dr. Boas is a noted medieval archaeologist and was part of the excavators at Ateret, head of the excavation at the Teutonic quarter in Acre and so on.

15th April 2009, 06:15 AM	#2
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	Hi Jim The lady name was Kate Rafael and the title of her talk was: "Archeology of battle field", specifically related to the excavations in "Ateret" a small crusader fortress on the Jordan river bank. I will call her to find out if she has a copy of her presentation. Other exacavation related to this period were made in the old city of Acre and many other fortresses, but to the best of my knowlege only few remains of arms and armor were found: armor parts, spear heads mace head, many arrowheads and the like. Not a single sword.

15th April 2009, 10:25 AM	#4
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 334	To add Artzi's post, Ateret is the modern name to Vadum Iacob, a Templar outpost on the road to Damascus, its history is well documented. Here is a link to the excavation page: http://vadumiacob.huji.ac.il/ I have all the official inventory of edge weapon artifacts (documented crusader period) from the Antiquity Authority, and there are only about two dozens of them, mostly fragments. Two full swords were recovered from under the sea and they are totally encrusted in marine deposit, another important sword lacking its cross guard but do have its original wooden plank scabbard; it has been on loan for the past several year to the L'institut du Monde Arab in Paris. I'm aware of several other partial items in private hands, very few.

15th April 2009, 03:00 PM	#5
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	how much does the sword weigh, artzi? thanks for posting!

15th April 2009, 07:19 PM	#7
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Ewart Oakeshott has a very nice theory about find places: quote "it is necessary to say a word about the places at which swords have been found. to be able to say that a certain sword was found on the site of a certain battle, thereby providing a firm terminus post quem date, is of no use at all. If half-a-dozen swords,an Axe or two, dozens of arrow heads and many spears, were to be found on a battle site,this would be evidence. But it never happens ; it is only the isolated sword that is generally found in a stream or a pond near the battle-site. After any battle, all the debris of value,-and swords above all weapons were of great value, as well as being easily portable-was collected up; all the Armour, clothes,jewelery or any other move able property left upon the dead was stripped off before the bodies were put into pits.................so it must be with so many medieval swords found on or near places where a battle is known to have been fought; but on the sites of great well known battles-Hastings, Evesham, Bouvines, Crecy, Mauron, Sempach,Agincourt,Beauge, Patay,Mont'Lhery,Nancy, Marignano-swords have not been found at all. I believe that any note that a sword was found "near the site of the battle of X" has to be taken with rather more than a pinch of salt. Unquote

16th April 2009, 07:55 AM	#8
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 334	Jim, you may want to look into this: http://books.google.com/books?id=a4R...snum=1#PPP1,M1 This book is the most up-to-date single volume about the entire subject. Dr. Boas is a noted medieval archaeologist and was part of the excavators at Ateret, head of the excavation at the Teutonic quarter in Acre and so on.