Scottish Late Medieval 'Claidheamh - mor' Swords

Matchlock · 13th April 2009, 04:47 PM

Sold to benefit the Great Hall Armory display at Warwick Castle, Tom Del Mar, Dec 12, 2007, lot 279, GBP 240,000 - despite the fact that it was not preserved in original condition.

So check your savings before bidding.

Michael

Jim McDougall · 13th April 2009, 06:24 PM

GASP!!! What a beauty!
Thank you so much Michael,
I think there are only about ten actual claymore's in existence so the price is not at all surprising.
One of my favorite paintings is of one of the MacDougall clansmen holding an identical one of these, and if I recall the same quatrefoil quillon terminals.

Outstanding note on the marking reflecting the practice of placing such marks associated to those of stone masons. I have always been puzzled by the term 'pi' for those curious little marks. Have you seen any additional examples with that reference?

On Brians note, I'm waaay puzzled....I thought I was a mere mortal too....have I missed a memo somewhere?

All the best,
Jim

Matchlock · 15th April 2009, 04:31 PM

I hope that these make the relationship to the maker's mark on the British Museum Claymore evident.

Michael

Jim McDougall · 15th April 2009, 04:56 PM

I see what you mean Michael, it really is interesting how closely related these types of identifying symbols were to those used by armourers and blade makers. Are these characters runes ? or a grouping of actual symbols? Perhaps the alphabetic character was initially the individuals initial, then personalized by adding lines or added deviation as others shared the same initial.

All the best,
Jim

ward · 17th April 2009, 01:40 AM

Out of my area here but those marks look like Tatar tamga brands too.
I know the Poles adopted them, not sure how far west they got but
probably a realtionship there somewhere.

Matchlock · 17th April 2009, 04:00 PM

Hi Jim,

Although it is hard to prove I think that these signs are, as you put it, a grouping of actual symbols rather than runes.
At times when craftsmen like stone masons could mostly neither read nor write they had to rely on simple symbols to mark their daily work and thus prove how far they got. After all, we know from documents that they got their daily pay based on their individual signs left on the stones in the building.

Starting from this surmise I should put forward as a thesis that these signs generally were a sort of a mixture of simple symbolized cyphers and initials primarily used by illiterate persons as I tried to point out in my former thread on my big bronze haquebut wall gun, Nuremberg, ca. 1515-20. I repost both the sign on the hook of that gun and a woodcut by Erhard Schön, Nuremberg, ca. 1530 depicting a tavern scene with such simple markings on the black board, representing the respective bills of the guests.

Michael

Matchlock · 17th April 2009, 04:04 PM

I forgot to add that of course the symbols in the makers' mark and on the stones seem to be much more personal identifications than the stylized numberings on my wall gun and the tavern board.

Michael

BerberDagger · 24th October 2011, 04:39 PM

this ... thank you

Matchlock · 25th October 2011, 01:09 AM

Hi Berber Dagger,

I copied those masons' signs from this site:

http://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=h...:0&tx=34&ty=36

You should also refer to these links though:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/marialu...7621224565943/

http://www.burgenseite.com/stmz/stmz_txt.htm

http://www.google.de/search?q=mittel...w=1129&bih=675

Could we please see and learn more about your sword?

Best,
Michael

fernando · 26th October 2011, 08:10 PM

Sorry if i divert a little, Michl, but i know you don’t dislike these historical things

.
Do i find some similitary between the marks already posted here and those used by the fishermen of my home town?
… Said to have probably been influenced by the local Viking colonization (IX-X) century, among other less solid theories, these marks represented the "coat of arms" of each family, used to mark all their property and also their presence in places of religious cult, in the interior and along the coast, during their pilgrimages.
It has been established by local ethnologists that this system of house marks was also used in Scandinavia ( bomärken) and correspondence can be found with Nordic runas.

.

Matchlock · 27th October 2011, 06:25 PM

Brilliant documentation, 'Nando,

Thank you so much for taking us back to the roots of runes. As this thread was on Sottish late medieval swords, I wanted to concentate on contemporary comparable sources.

Going back to the roots would of course mean starting at the earliest stone scratchings of the Stone Age, the Sumerian cuneiform etc.

In this large historic retrospective however you of course deserve special crediting for pointing out the famous - tough widely neglected - fishermen's runes of your home town!

Best,
Michl

13th April 2009, 04:47 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	The Warwick Castle Claymore Sold to benefit the Great Hall Armory display at Warwick Castle, Tom Del Mar, Dec 12, 2007, lot 279, GBP 240,000 - despite the fact that it was not preserved in original condition. So check your savings before bidding. Michael Attached Images

15th April 2009, 04:31 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	15th Century Stone Masons' Signs I hope that these make the relationship to the maker's mark on the British Museum Claymore evident. Michael Attached Images

17th April 2009, 04:00 PM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Jim, Although it is hard to prove I think that these signs are, as you put it, a grouping of actual symbols rather than runes. At times when craftsmen like stone masons could mostly neither read nor write they had to rely on simple symbols to mark their daily work and thus prove how far they got. After all, we know from documents that they got their daily pay based on their individual signs left on the stones in the building. Starting from this surmise I should put forward as a thesis that these signs generally were a sort of a mixture of simple symbolized cyphers and initials primarily used by illiterate persons as I tried to point out in my former thread on my big bronze haquebut wall gun, Nuremberg, ca. 1515-20. I repost both the sign on the hook of that gun and a woodcut by Erhard Schön, Nuremberg, ca. 1530 depicting a tavern scene with such simple markings on the black board, representing the respective bills of the guests. Michael Attached Images

24th October 2011, 04:39 PM	#8
BerberDagger Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 247	this this ... thank you Attached Images Last edited by BerberDagger; 24th October 2011 at 05:19 PM.

26th October 2011, 08:10 PM	#10
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Sorry if i divert a little, Michl, but i know you don’t dislike these historical things . Do i find some similitary between the marks already posted here and those used by the fishermen of my home town? … Said to have probably been influenced by the local Viking colonization (IX-X) century, among other less solid theories, these marks represented the "coat of arms" of each family, used to mark all their property and also their presence in places of religious cult, in the interior and along the coast, during their pilgrimages. It has been established by local ethnologists that this system of house marks was also used in Scandinavia ( bomärken) and correspondence can be found with Nordic runas. . Attached Images

13th April 2009, 06:24 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	GASP!!! What a beauty! Thank you so much Michael, I think there are only about ten actual claymore's in existence so the price is not at all surprising. One of my favorite paintings is of one of the MacDougall clansmen holding an identical one of these, and if I recall the same quatrefoil quillon terminals. Outstanding note on the marking reflecting the practice of placing such marks associated to those of stone masons. I have always been puzzled by the term 'pi' for those curious little marks. Have you seen any additional examples with that reference? On Brians note, I'm waaay puzzled....I thought I was a mere mortal too....have I missed a memo somewhere? All the best, Jim

15th April 2009, 04:56 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	I see what you mean Michael, it really is interesting how closely related these types of identifying symbols were to those used by armourers and blade makers. Are these characters runes ? or a grouping of actual symbols? Perhaps the alphabetic character was initially the individuals initial, then personalized by adding lines or added deviation as others shared the same initial. All the best, Jim

17th April 2009, 01:40 AM	#5
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Out of my area here but those marks look like Tatar tamga brands too. I know the Poles adopted them, not sure how far west they got but probably a realtionship there somewhere.

17th April 2009, 04:04 PM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	I forgot to add that of course the symbols in the makers' mark and on the stones seem to be much more personal identifications than the stylized numberings on my wall gun and the tavern board. Michael

25th October 2011, 01:09 AM	#9
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Berber Dagger, I copied those masons' signs from this site: http://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=h...:0&tx=34&ty=36 You should also refer to these links though: http://www.flickr.com/photos/marialu...7621224565943/ http://www.burgenseite.com/stmz/stmz_txt.htm http://www.google.de/search?q=mittel...w=1129&bih=675 Could we please see and learn more about your sword? Best, Michael

27th October 2011, 06:25 PM	#11
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Brilliant documentation, 'Nando, Thank you so much for taking us back to the roots of runes. As this thread was on Sottish late medieval swords, I wanted to concentate on contemporary comparable sources. Going back to the roots would of course mean starting at the earliest stone scratchings of the Stone Age, the Sumerian cuneiform etc. In this large historic retrospective however you of course deserve special crediting for pointing out the famous - tough widely neglected - fishermen's runes of your home town! Best, Michl