My Birthday Present: Knife for ID Please

Jim McDougall · 4th April 2009, 10:33 PM

Now THATS esoteric!!! Beautifully done Norman and great follow through. I always hate it when a thread ends with things unresolved, and its great when someone finds 'new evidence' down the road.
Thank you so much.

All the best,
Jim

Norman McCormick · 5th April 2009, 05:36 PM

Hi Radleigh,
Apologies, I'm a wee bit later than I anticipated with further info.
The attached photo is from a manuscript, Douce 374 f17, in the Bodleian Library in Oxford and dates from the 15th Century. The three knifes shown are the Chaffer, Parer and Trencher. The Chaffer was used for large loaves, the Trencher for smoothing edges and the Mensal knife for removing the select 'upper crust' for presentation to the lord. The other photo is of a Panter slicing bread c1250, there is no comment on which particular knife is being used unfortunately. Although none of the knives are exactly like yours the familial similarity is, I think, worth a thought with regard to my conclusions. As you know knives, like everything else, change through time and fashion and I think it is not too big a leap of faith to see the fundamental similarities between your knife and these Medieval utensils. If I had to stick my neck out and state exactly what I think your knife 'may' represent I would say that it is a 'badge of office' dating from the latter years of the 18th Century, is possibly French and is on balance probably Military. The whole look of the piece has that 'romantic', 'mythological' and 'empire' feel that says to me Napoleonic. The blade decoration,to me, shouts military and as with Band Swords, Officers Dirks etc., it is decorative and states that the wearer is of a certain rank/position within a structured organisation but is non-functional. I think it may have something to do with a non-combatant but important position within an army e.g. Supply Officer, Head Cook/Chef, Officer in charge of Provisions etc. Of course all of the aforementioned may be complete ******** but I can't think of anything else that fits the bill. If nothing else I hope you find the info interesting.
My Regards,
Norman.

Norman McCormick · 5th April 2009, 07:08 PM

Hi,
Another illustration.
Regards,
Norman.

5th April 2009, 05:36 PM	#2
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,618	Hi Radleigh, Apologies, I'm a wee bit later than I anticipated with further info. The attached photo is from a manuscript, Douce 374 f17, in the Bodleian Library in Oxford and dates from the 15th Century. The three knifes shown are the Chaffer, Parer and Trencher. The Chaffer was used for large loaves, the Trencher for smoothing edges and the Mensal knife for removing the select 'upper crust' for presentation to the lord. The other photo is of a Panter slicing bread c1250, there is no comment on which particular knife is being used unfortunately. Although none of the knives are exactly like yours the familial similarity is, I think, worth a thought with regard to my conclusions. As you know knives, like everything else, change through time and fashion and I think it is not too big a leap of faith to see the fundamental similarities between your knife and these Medieval utensils. If I had to stick my neck out and state exactly what I think your knife 'may' represent I would say that it is a 'badge of office' dating from the latter years of the 18th Century, is possibly French and is on balance probably Military. The whole look of the piece has that 'romantic', 'mythological' and 'empire' feel that says to me Napoleonic. The blade decoration,to me, shouts military and as with Band Swords, Officers Dirks etc., it is decorative and states that the wearer is of a certain rank/position within a structured organisation but is non-functional. I think it may have something to do with a non-combatant but important position within an army e.g. Supply Officer, Head Cook/Chef, Officer in charge of Provisions etc. Of course all of the aforementioned may be complete ******** but I can't think of anything else that fits the bill. If nothing else I hope you find the info interesting. My Regards, Norman. Attached Images

5th April 2009, 07:08 PM	#3
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,618	Hi, Another illustration. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

4th April 2009, 10:33 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,284	Now THATS esoteric!!! Beautifully done Norman and great follow through. I always hate it when a thread ends with things unresolved, and its great when someone finds 'new evidence' down the road. Thank you so much. All the best, Jim