Istanbul Visit

Radu Transylvanicus · 13th December 2004, 10:05 AM

Thank you so much Eftihis , I owe you big time ... On the other side, I am a little disapointed by theTopkapi curators who are generally more efficient on doing a better job on description labels (at least this is not the disastruos Bangkok museum we saw the other week).
On Stefan`s sword, the label shoud at least say : Sword of Stefan the Great, ruler of Moldavia 15th century (Romania) big difference between being Roman and being Romanian, nevermind common the heritage ...

and this anarchic display next to Japanese swords and armor and the grotesque gigantic swords in the background mixed with the kilij stand is just not OK to my eye ... Bucharest is not next to Okinawa on the map and the yoroi is no match for the statuary bastard swords of Herculean size and the Indo-Persian shield unless this was meant to show the exact oposition and absolute differences in styles and dimesions of arms and armour... I dare to say that any member of the Forum would've had more common sense in composing a more apropriate panoply or is it just overly picky me that feels this is unforgiveably chaotic and not OK for one of the world class most finest museums... ?

Still, Eftihis you made my day by taking this images, I was longing for images of this sword for quite a while now ... There certainly are some amazing moments and breaktroughs in this Forum at times and I hope I put a smile on your face when I posted the image of the Cretans with their bitchaqs ...
P.S. I would love to see more pics from Askeri and Topkapi museums, I hope its on your soon ,, to do list,, ...
All the best , yours truely,
Radu .

Yannis · 13th December 2004, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

and this anarchic display next to Japanese swords and armor and the grotesque gigantic swords in the background mixed with the kilij stand is just not OK to my eye

Well you are quite polite, my friend. This is outrageous!

A sword of this importance deserves something better than this little corner of this variety display.

The reason that it is not turkish, ottoman or islamic is not enough for such a treatment.

Romanian people may protest via e-mail

Rivkin · 13th December 2004, 05:28 PM

Well, my experience is that 90% of expositions in world museums become very chaotic and unrepresentative when it comes to arms and armor. My local Chicago Art Institute would be a good example.

Cheapy Shinto Wakizashi, Wakizashi being displayed _in_ its scabbard, poor lighting that does not allow one to see steel patterns, tons of halbers with not a single spear head, good wootz kiliji (or was it shamshir ? I don't remember), with no inscirption commenting on wootz, general impression of a few gifts being tossed together into the room, with no desire to make something better of it.

Well, still beats the hell out of "modern" photography they display downstairs (photographs of red squares, photographs of black squares, frames without photographs, photographs of water taken with 0.5s interval 10 times etc.), but leaves quite a troublesome impression nevertheless.

erlikhan · 14th December 2004, 10:20 PM

Eftihis, I would like to meet you for sure. Please write the phone number of your hotel. I can call you tomorrow or day after tomorrow. If you want my phone, email me.
About the Byzantian name of Istanbul, it was used by Christian minorities and Europeans in Ottoman time. The writing on those swords belong to some Armenian workshops. Not to Turks at all. The roots of the names are not so important. Here, when a Greek uses the name Konstantinapolis everybody considers it as a claim of right on the ownership of the city. And it must be correct, as everybody else have already learned the name of the city, but only in Greece it is insisted not to be used! Eftihis and Yannis,Thanks for your kind replies even correcting it. I guess you understand what irritated me; especially different versions of errors which were not related to each other, in every single time the name of the city was typed.
About the innocency of insist on continuing to use old historical names , Greeks must be the bests to understand the problem, as it is Greece's problem too, for even not one of your own cities, but a whole different country. Greece demands Macedonia to change its name

Anyway Eftihis, I wait for your number.
regards

eftihis · 14th December 2004, 11:55 PM

Erlikhan, it was a very sort trip, and i am already back in Greece.
I hope we can meet next time, or if you come yourself in Greece before that.

I went to Top Kapi, i saw great things and a lot of weapons, in some rooms fotos were not permited, but i bought a book that has just been printed "the sacred trusts" and has the swords of Mohamet, of the Prophets, of the chaliphs, and all items of these rooms in superb photographs.

Askeri museum was fantastic, i took more than 300 fotos, and as soon as i find time i will dimish them so to be able to post them.

Ariel, i couldnt see Ms. Yasar, since she is not there in the weekends...

And i left my second visit to the closed market for Sunday, (but i found out that at Sunday the market is closed) and so i didnt see the Cretan yataghan.

Yannis · 14th December 2004, 11:56 PM

Come on Erlikhan!

As far as Turkey owns Konstantinopolis has the right to name it as it wants. In international discusions we can use the word Istanbul but in greek we use the name that we used for 1650 years, and we will not change it because Kemal decided different!

Anyone who can read history can learn how Turks occupied the city on 1943 and what happend to the massive Greek and Armenian population there till 1956!

Macedonia is quite a different story. The state north of Greece got this name in Tito era (after WWII) as a province of Yugoslavia and now it claims that has origins from Great Alexander for God's shake!

If you think that names make history lets talk about Effesos, the city that hosted the Artemis temple, one of the Seven Wanders of the world. You call it Effes.

Or Ikonion, the big Hellenistic and Byzantine city, you call Konya, from where you sell as major tourist attraction the Mevlevi Dervish dancing and you seem to forget that the founder of their order, Mevlana, was not a Turk but a Persian. Would you like from me more examples about forging history and tell lies about national identities to the whole world?

It seems that some "historians" have been expert to make a bright new... past.

erlikhan · 15th December 2004, 01:41 AM

Yannis, sorry but I only feel fun against your subjectiveness and aggresiveness. You just confirm what I told before by your attitude.
What occupation in 1943?? Do you confuse Istanbul with Greece who was occupied by Germans? No occupation occured in Istanbul in 1943 at all! And nothing happened in 1956 too. Perhaps you meant to say 1955? Vast Greek majority in Istanbul, capitol of Ottoman Turkey??lol. It never happened since 1453 when immidiately Turkish population was established after conquering the city, and in 1922 , 1 million Greeks and 500 thousand Turks were exchanged between two countries. In Istanbul ,after that exchange, Greeks were only 100000 in a total of 500000 .In 1955 some civil riots against Greek stores and estates occured, like several ones which occured to Turkish majority in "Western Trakya " region of Greece, in towns like Gumulcine and Iskece , last in a very close date:1989! Even in 90ties,an effective parliament from Turkish minority was killed in an obviously "arranged" accident,not? Do you know how many Turkish civilians were massacred in Greece between 1821 and 1913?? Hundreds of thousands. One of my old relatives always told until she died, how they ran to Turkey through mountains in 1912 winter escaping from death by Greek soldiers following them and killing when they catch. To stay alive, they ate the ones who couldnt stand the conditions and died .
Macedonia was not found by Tito. Macedonia vilayet - state of Ottomans included soil from today's Greece, Macedonia and as far as I know, little part of western Bulgaria. All this region was named Macedonia. Today's Greek part is southern Macedonia, and the other is northern.
And we call Efes, not a city that reached to Turkish period. We call just an archeological ruin and at least we keep it,like the Byzantian city walls of Istanbul. What about more than 30, some very big mosques in Athens constructed in Ottoman time or other buildings in all Greece? None survived . Athens was a Turkish ruled city for centuries, but now it is the only capitol in Europe which doesn't have a mosque . Not strange?
Konya was founded by Hittites or before, having ruins of even neolithic age.There were cities and states in all today's Turkey , before Greece itself was founded. Greeks had been living before us in some parts of the country, but there were others before Greeks for thousands of years. So what?
Mevlana can be a Turk, or Persian , or anything he wishes to be. He wrote in both Turkish and Persian but I dont care at all. You can own him too if you wish, no problem for me. As I said, I saw many examples before like carbon copied with you, being educated with systematical hatred and having logics shaped exactly same, and and can gladly discuss to spend some free time but this forum is not the appropriate place for it. If we continue it ,we will cause just pollution here. You can email to taserserzer@yahoo.com if you have something different to discuss.
regards

TVV · 15th December 2004, 03:02 AM

I would ask that we do not engage in disputes about Balkans history from the first half of the twentieth century, and I would especially like to avoid the topic of Macedonia, as it is perhaps one of the most controversial topics in recent European history. I am a decendent of Macedonian Bulgarian refugees in 1918, but would like to leave this subject in the past, where it belongs. We all have our claims, argument and victoms. Let us respect the letter, and preserve the good atmosphere in this forum, which is meant for discussing ethnic weapons, not ethnic cleansing.

13th December 2004, 10:05 AM	#1
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Thank you so much Eftihis , I owe you big time ... On the other side, I am a little disapointed by theTopkapi curators who are generally more efficient on doing a better job on description labels (at least this is not the disastruos Bangkok museum we saw the other week). On Stefan`s sword, the label shoud at least say : Sword of Stefan the Great, ruler of Moldavia 15th century (Romania) big difference between being Roman and being Romanian, nevermind common the heritage ... and this anarchic display next to Japanese swords and armor and the grotesque gigantic swords in the background mixed with the kilij stand is just not OK to my eye ... Bucharest is not next to Okinawa on the map and the yoroi is no match for the statuary bastard swords of Herculean size and the Indo-Persian shield unless this was meant to show the exact oposition and absolute differences in styles and dimesions of arms and armour... I dare to say that any member of the Forum would've had more common sense in composing a more apropriate panoply or is it just overly picky me that feels this is unforgiveably chaotic and not OK for one of the world class most finest museums... ? Still, Eftihis you made my day by taking this images, I was longing for images of this sword for quite a while now ... There certainly are some amazing moments and breaktroughs in this Forum at times and I hope I put a smile on your face when I posted the image of the Cretans with their bitchaqs ... P.S. I would love to see more pics from Askeri and Topkapi museums, I hope its on your soon ,, to do list,, ... All the best , yours truely, Radu . Last edited by Radu Transylvanicus; 13th December 2004 at 10:35 AM.

14th December 2004, 11:56 PM	#6
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Forging history Come on Erlikhan! As far as Turkey owns Konstantinopolis has the right to name it as it wants. In international discusions we can use the word Istanbul but in greek we use the name that we used for 1650 years, and we will not change it because Kemal decided different! Anyone who can read history can learn how Turks occupied the city on 1943 and what happend to the massive Greek and Armenian population there till 1956! Macedonia is quite a different story. The state north of Greece got this name in Tito era (after WWII) as a province of Yugoslavia and now it claims that has origins from Great Alexander for God's shake! If you think that names make history lets talk about Effesos, the city that hosted the Artemis temple, one of the Seven Wanders of the world. You call it Effes. Or Ikonion, the big Hellenistic and Byzantine city, you call Konya, from where you sell as major tourist attraction the Mevlevi Dervish dancing and you seem to forget that the founder of their order, Mevlana, was not a Turk but a Persian. Would you like from me more examples about forging history and tell lies about national identities to the whole world? It seems that some "historians" have been expert to make a bright new... past.

13th December 2004, 05:28 PM	#3
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Well, my experience is that 90% of expositions in world museums become very chaotic and unrepresentative when it comes to arms and armor. My local Chicago Art Institute would be a good example. Cheapy Shinto Wakizashi, Wakizashi being displayed _in_ its scabbard, poor lighting that does not allow one to see steel patterns, tons of halbers with not a single spear head, good wootz kiliji (or was it shamshir ? I don't remember), with no inscirption commenting on wootz, general impression of a few gifts being tossed together into the room, with no desire to make something better of it. Well, still beats the hell out of "modern" photography they display downstairs (photographs of red squares, photographs of black squares, frames without photographs, photographs of water taken with 0.5s interval 10 times etc.), but leaves quite a troublesome impression nevertheless.

14th December 2004, 10:20 PM	#4
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Eftihis, I would like to meet you for sure. Please write the phone number of your hotel. I can call you tomorrow or day after tomorrow. If you want my phone, email me. About the Byzantian name of Istanbul, it was used by Christian minorities and Europeans in Ottoman time. The writing on those swords belong to some Armenian workshops. Not to Turks at all. The roots of the names are not so important. Here, when a Greek uses the name Konstantinapolis everybody considers it as a claim of right on the ownership of the city. And it must be correct, as everybody else have already learned the name of the city, but only in Greece it is insisted not to be used! Eftihis and Yannis,Thanks for your kind replies even correcting it. I guess you understand what irritated me; especially different versions of errors which were not related to each other, in every single time the name of the city was typed. About the innocency of insist on continuing to use old historical names , Greeks must be the bests to understand the problem, as it is Greece's problem too, for even not one of your own cities, but a whole different country. Greece demands Macedonia to change its name Anyway Eftihis, I wait for your number. regards

14th December 2004, 11:55 PM	#5
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 511	Erlikhan, it was a very sort trip, and i am already back in Greece. I hope we can meet next time, or if you come yourself in Greece before that. I went to Top Kapi, i saw great things and a lot of weapons, in some rooms fotos were not permited, but i bought a book that has just been printed "the sacred trusts" and has the swords of Mohamet, of the Prophets, of the chaliphs, and all items of these rooms in superb photographs. Askeri museum was fantastic, i took more than 300 fotos, and as soon as i find time i will dimish them so to be able to post them. Ariel, i couldnt see Ms. Yasar, since she is not there in the weekends... And i left my second visit to the closed market for Sunday, (but i found out that at Sunday the market is closed) and so i didnt see the Cretan yataghan.

15th December 2004, 01:41 AM	#7
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Yannis, sorry but I only feel fun against your subjectiveness and aggresiveness. You just confirm what I told before by your attitude. What occupation in 1943?? Do you confuse Istanbul with Greece who was occupied by Germans? No occupation occured in Istanbul in 1943 at all! And nothing happened in 1956 too. Perhaps you meant to say 1955? Vast Greek majority in Istanbul, capitol of Ottoman Turkey??lol. It never happened since 1453 when immidiately Turkish population was established after conquering the city, and in 1922 , 1 million Greeks and 500 thousand Turks were exchanged between two countries. In Istanbul ,after that exchange, Greeks were only 100000 in a total of 500000 .In 1955 some civil riots against Greek stores and estates occured, like several ones which occured to Turkish majority in "Western Trakya " region of Greece, in towns like Gumulcine and Iskece , last in a very close date:1989! Even in 90ties,an effective parliament from Turkish minority was killed in an obviously "arranged" accident,not? Do you know how many Turkish civilians were massacred in Greece between 1821 and 1913?? Hundreds of thousands. One of my old relatives always told until she died, how they ran to Turkey through mountains in 1912 winter escaping from death by Greek soldiers following them and killing when they catch. To stay alive, they ate the ones who couldnt stand the conditions and died . Macedonia was not found by Tito. Macedonia vilayet - state of Ottomans included soil from today's Greece, Macedonia and as far as I know, little part of western Bulgaria. All this region was named Macedonia. Today's Greek part is southern Macedonia, and the other is northern. And we call Efes, not a city that reached to Turkish period. We call just an archeological ruin and at least we keep it,like the Byzantian city walls of Istanbul. What about more than 30, some very big mosques in Athens constructed in Ottoman time or other buildings in all Greece? None survived . Athens was a Turkish ruled city for centuries, but now it is the only capitol in Europe which doesn't have a mosque . Not strange? Konya was founded by Hittites or before, having ruins of even neolithic age.There were cities and states in all today's Turkey , before Greece itself was founded. Greeks had been living before us in some parts of the country, but there were others before Greeks for thousands of years. So what? Mevlana can be a Turk, or Persian , or anything he wishes to be. He wrote in both Turkish and Persian but I dont care at all. You can own him too if you wish, no problem for me. As I said, I saw many examples before like carbon copied with you, being educated with systematical hatred and having logics shaped exactly same, and and can gladly discuss to spend some free time but this forum is not the appropriate place for it. If we continue it ,we will cause just pollution here. You can email to taserserzer@yahoo.com if you have something different to discuss. regards

15th December 2004, 03:02 AM	#8
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	I would ask that we do not engage in disputes about Balkans history from the first half of the twentieth century, and I would especially like to avoid the topic of Macedonia, as it is perhaps one of the most controversial topics in recent European history. I am a decendent of Macedonian Bulgarian refugees in 1918, but would like to leave this subject in the past, where it belongs. We all have our claims, argument and victoms. Let us respect the letter, and preserve the good atmosphere in this forum, which is meant for discussing ethnic weapons, not ethnic cleansing.