German Cavalry Sword?

Jim McDougall · 1st April 2009, 12:03 AM

Hi Brian,
Thank you for posting another of your swords!
I have always thought these heraldic cartouches on sword hilts are most attractive, and as Kisak notes, the form is widely seen on a number of Continental European hilt forms.
I very much agree with yours and Kisak's assessment, and the eagle emblem is essentially the Prussian arms, as seen in the hilt of M1889 cavalry swords, and certainly some others of the period. This is not that pattern, and I have not seen this type hilt before. The folding hilt is familiar to me from similar officers 'gothic' style hilts in British swords of about mid 19th c. and the styling of this hilt has some similarities.

It would seem your sword is probably a Prussian cavalry dress sword of possibly turn of the century. The various German states such as Saxony etc typicaly of course had thier own arms in cartouche the same way.

I hope we get more response from someone who might have references that would give us a more defined identification.

All the best,
Jim

BBJW · 1st April 2009, 03:37 PM

I have heard the dent in the scabbard called a "train door dent". Also very likely the dent was intentional to keep the sword from making noise. A pic of the entire hilt would be nice.

bbjw

Jim McDougall · 1st April 2009, 04:38 PM

BJ,
Interesting notes on the 'dent' in the scabbard, and the idea of preventing the telltale rattle sounds plausible in some degree...whatever the case, interesting sword lore. To me it has always seemed that the unmistakeable sound of cavalry would be nearly impossible to mask, pounding hooves notwithstanding; the rattling of trappings and accoutrements etc.

There were of course also the covering of swords entirely in leather, in Mexico in the 19th c. to prevent the glint of shining steel in the sun. Actually more likely to prevent burning the hand with relentless desert heat and sunlight heating the steel to stovetop temperatures. This was done in WWI in Palestine and Mesopotamia with the British M1908 bowlguard cavalry sabres, whose huge bowls were entirely covered in leather.
I had one of these 'Allenby' swords (for the commanding general in those regions) once, a beautiful Wilkinson blade as well! It really was attractive (I love leather...and !...oh well

.

All the best,
Jim

kisak · 1st April 2009, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

BJ,
To me it has always seemed that the unmistakeable sound of cavalry would be nearly impossible to mask, pounding hooves notwithstanding; the rattling of trappings and accoutrements etc.

The saber rattling might perhaps be more of an issue in civilian social life than in the field?

Iliad · 1st April 2009, 10:15 PM

Hi BBJW, thanks for the input, I always worry that my swords will be so uninteresting that no one will reply and I will be left looking foolish! So, all you wonderful experts out there, please humour this old guy and post comments on my offerings! Anyway here are 2 pics of the hilt and hope that they are satisfactory.
Brian

BBJW · 2nd April 2009, 01:02 AM

This sword I believe is called a Prussian Cavalry Degen 89.

cheers
bbjw

Jim McDougall · 2nd April 2009, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kisak

The saber rattling might perhaps be more of an issue in civilian social life than in the field?

Extremely well said Kisak!!! Sure is a lot of it these days!!

BJ, I think you got it

Iliad.....very nice...please keep 'em coming. Never know what tales a sword has to tell, and its wonderful to be able to discuss them here.

All best regards,
Jim

Iliad · 2nd April 2009, 09:54 PM

Gentlemen, as always you have been most helpful. My knowledge of the items in my collection is increasing apace! Many thanks.
Brian

Gavin Nugent · 3rd April 2009, 02:16 AM

Keep em coming Brian,

I know you have some good ones tucked away, it is always good to see the expanse of topics increase.

Gav

1st April 2009, 04:38 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	BJ, Interesting notes on the 'dent' in the scabbard, and the idea of preventing the telltale rattle sounds plausible in some degree...whatever the case, interesting sword lore. To me it has always seemed that the unmistakeable sound of cavalry would be nearly impossible to mask, pounding hooves notwithstanding; the rattling of trappings and accoutrements etc. There were of course also the covering of swords entirely in leather, in Mexico in the 19th c. to prevent the glint of shining steel in the sun. Actually more likely to prevent burning the hand with relentless desert heat and sunlight heating the steel to stovetop temperatures. This was done in WWI in Palestine and Mesopotamia with the British M1908 bowlguard cavalry sabres, whose huge bowls were entirely covered in leather. I had one of these 'Allenby' swords (for the commanding general in those regions) once, a beautiful Wilkinson blade as well! It really was attractive (I love leather...and !...oh well. All the best, Jim

1st April 2009, 10:15 PM	#5
Iliad Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 187	Hi BBJW, thanks for the input, I always worry that my swords will be so uninteresting that no one will reply and I will be left looking foolish! So, all you wonderful experts out there, please humour this old guy and post comments on my offerings! Anyway here are 2 pics of the hilt and hope that they are satisfactory. Brian Attached Images

2nd April 2009, 09:54 PM	#8
Iliad Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 187	Prussian Cavalry Sword Gentlemen, as always you have been most helpful. My knowledge of the items in my collection is increasing apace! Many thanks. Brian

3rd April 2009, 02:16 AM	#9
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Keep em coming Brian Keep em coming Brian, I know you have some good ones tucked away, it is always good to see the expanse of topics increase. Gav

1st April 2009, 12:03 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Hi Brian, Thank you for posting another of your swords! I have always thought these heraldic cartouches on sword hilts are most attractive, and as Kisak notes, the form is widely seen on a number of Continental European hilt forms. I very much agree with yours and Kisak's assessment, and the eagle emblem is essentially the Prussian arms, as seen in the hilt of M1889 cavalry swords, and certainly some others of the period. This is not that pattern, and I have not seen this type hilt before. The folding hilt is familiar to me from similar officers 'gothic' style hilts in British swords of about mid 19th c. and the styling of this hilt has some similarities. It would seem your sword is probably a Prussian cavalry dress sword of possibly turn of the century. The various German states such as Saxony etc typicaly of course had thier own arms in cartouche the same way. I hope we get more response from someone who might have references that would give us a more defined identification. All the best, Jim

1st April 2009, 03:37 PM	#2
BBJW Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Idaho, USA Posts: 228	I have heard the dent in the scabbard called a "train door dent". Also very likely the dent was intentional to keep the sword from making noise. A pic of the entire hilt would be nice. bbjw

2nd April 2009, 01:02 AM	#6
BBJW Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Idaho, USA Posts: 228	This sword I believe is called a Prussian Cavalry Degen 89. cheers bbjw