Possible date attribution for Persian shield

[rand]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Hi Rand,
Beautiful shield, but then you know that, or you would not have bought it.
Interesting what you write about the floral decoration, as I have been working on the subject for years, and am of the same opinion that you are.
It is, however a hard and stony way to walk, although there, now and again, are pieces of information to be found, often when looking at textiles.
Jens

Hi Jens,

Would be very interested in your opinion of what any of the flowers in this shield are and also if you think of a region that may suggest.


rand

[rand]

This photo show a section of the calligraphy on the perimeter of this shield. What interests me is the unusual fish scale like incised decoration around the writing inside the cartouche.

rand

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Rand,

Sorry for the late response. It is always difficult to recognise flowers cut in steel, first it can have been difficult for the artist to show the flower in its correct form, and second we must consider the possibility of artistic freedom, which could change the look of the flower considerably. When you look at floral decoration, you should also take an interest in the leaves, as they would have been easier to make, and therefore more like in nature, and I don’t think the artist would use a lot of his ‘freedom’ to change the leaves – but one can never know. There are at least three different flowers on your shield, and one could be a rose, but I am not quite sure.

The scales around the inscription are strange, and have, maybe, only been made for decorative reasons. In some places in India the fish is holy, and there they could have used a scaled decoration, but I don’t know if it was holy anywhere in Persia.

Jens

[Rick]

Then we must also wonder if the scales represented might be reptilian .

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Rick

Then we must also wonder if the scales represented might be reptilian .

It sure is good to have you back Rick!!!

Reptilian? ahah! very astute Nagan associations perhaps? Excellent thought. I was thinking about the fish as Jens had described as I was pondering the great detail he was referring to with the floral motif, and hadn't thought of the snake.
While the fish is indeed important in varying degree in many Indian cultures, I'm not aware of the Persian application, but I feel relatively certain the snake has important symbolism in Persia as well.

Whatever the case, it provides a most attractive field in the motif, and I'm glad Rand posted it here!

All the best,
Jim

[rand]

Originally Posted by Rick

Then we must also wonder if the scales represented might be reptilian .

Hey Rick,

Am very open to all opinions as it is my strong belief that any theor has to be proven over the scrutiny of time. Do you know of any fish scale examples used in Persian or Indian art?

These scale designs when used inside the calligraphy cartouche may become one of the characteristics associating it with the 19th century in Islamic metalwork. Its was just very surprising and exiting to see it for the first time.

Thanks for your suggestion,
rand

[Jim McDougall]

Rand,
Just wanted to say I am very much enjoying examining this shield, and appreciate you sharing the subtleties in the overall piece in noting and supporting your thoughts on why it is Persian. It is great to have an example like this to learn from , and adding detailed comments really helps us understand key characteristics for future reference.
It is this kind of discussion, analysis and supported observations that really make our studies worthwhile.
Although we have not yet arrived conclusively at the nature of all the motif elements, it seems we're on the right trail, and its great seeing the observations everyone here is sharing.
Thank you !

All the best,
Jim

[rand]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Rand,
Just wanted to say I am very much enjoying examining this shield, and appreciate you sharing the subtleties in the overall piece in noting and supporting your thoughts on why it is Persian. It is great to have an example like this to learn from , and adding detailed comments really helps us understand key characteristics for future reference.
It is this kind of discussion, analysis and supported observations that really make our studies worthwhile.
Although we have not yet arrived conclusively at the nature of all the motif elements, it seems we're on the right trail, and its great seeing the observations everyone here is sharing.
Thank you !

All the best,
Jim

Hey Jim,

Thanks for the kind words,

Am just very appreciative for everyones feedback, added information and opinions....

rand

[rand]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Hi Rand,

Sorry for the late response. It is always difficult to recognise flowers cut in steel, first it can have been difficult for the artist to show the flower in its correct form, and second we must consider the possibility of artistic freedom, which could change the look of the flower considerably. When you look at floral decoration, you should also take an interest in the leaves, as they would have been easier to make, and therefore more like in nature, and I don’t think the artist would use a lot of his ‘freedom’ to change the leaves – but one can never know. There are at least three different flowers on your shield, and one could be a rose, but I am not quite sure.

The scales around the inscription are strange, and have, maybe, only been made for decorative reasons. In some places in India the fish is holy, and there they could have used a scaled decoration, but I don’t know if it was holy anywhere in Persia.

Jens

Hey Jens,

Very much like your insight for using the leaves of the foliage as an important ingrediant in the recipe for identifying flowers because of their more likely true to form concept. The rose would have also been my guess for the flowers in the central section of the shield, but I more associate the rose with Persia than India, that was one of my original reasons for the shield Persian.

What may be something to consider is the gradual accumulation of line drawing motifs used on arms decoration to form a gradual timeline of both style and decoration. For example it seems the Chinese influence on Islamic arms is greatest during the late 15th and 16th century as that is where you first see the Chinese cloud motif and other very dstinctive floral designs transitions and these would be very apparent when comparing designs.

Your take on the possible association of the fish scale uniquely to India as a holy motif is very intrigueing because I had thought this more likely a Persian shield, now my eyes are open to the now seemingly more likely origen as India. It seems now that getting a translation of the inscription is the next step to see if there is anything else also possibly unique to India as that would certainly make that attribution very solid for this shield.

Thanks Jens,

rand

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Rand,
Another thing which you must remember is, that they often show a flower from the front, and from the back - which now and again makes it look like quite another flower. Yes the Indians used the rose for decoration, poppy, chrysanthemum Indicum, sword lilly and many others.
Jens

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Hi Rand,
Another thing which you must remember is, that they often show a flower from the front, and from the back - which now and again makes it look like quite another flower. Yes the Indians used the rose for decoration, poppy, chrysanthemum Indicum, sword lilly and many others.
Jens

Hi Jens,
It seems I remember one hilt we discussed where the front of the flower appeared on one side of the surface, and the rear view of the flower was shown on the obverse. What incredible art and craftsmanship!!

All the best,
Jim