Moroccan sa'if help please

LPCA · 27th March 2009, 07:41 AM

Hello.

Morocco had from the beginning XVI ° an army equipped with artillery and with arquebuses used against Malta in 1562 and against portuguais in 1578. The foundries of bronze artillery were settled in Fes, Marrakesh and Taroudant and the bronze and iron were imported from Europe.
For the portable weapons (blades and light firearms), it was Targist, Fèz and especially Tétouan - center considered during several centuries until 1920.
From the beginning of XVI °, the Atlantic coast of Morocco lives to settle down a chain of portuguaises factories (Feitoria) from Tangier to Agadir where from dealt, in particular, firearms.
From the end of XVI °, this business became intensified with the Northern Europe.
England, Holland and France delivered big quantities of pieces and mounted weapons, while the powder came from Italy.
In XIX °, start the imports from Liège.
Except this business, the supply also resulted from the barbaresque enclave of Salé, as i said it yet.
So, i suppose that if they were able to forge barrels, they can also forge blades of Nimcha.

As for the hilt, usually they are horn made. Those with rhino horn (imported from sub-desert areas) were mostly reserved to sultan's guard (as for Koummiya hilts) and officers or special order for rich people.

So, David, I suggest your hilt is not wood but horn or rhino horn (they resist better to high temperature). Easy to know it you sand smoothly your hilt.

Best to everybody.

Louis-Pierre

ward · 27th March 2009, 01:54 PM

Regarding laquer do not sand you will lose the patina underneath. use a little acetone on a rag and it should take it off. If it is resistant soak it for a few minutes it will get sticky at first and then you can rub it or use a toothbrush with it gentle cleanings are much better than sandings.

Regarding workshops these are not the massive shops that were and are prevelant in the more european countries. Most are a small shop roughly 30 x 12 ft with a few people working. There are still a few blacksmith shops in Fes and Meknas currently. The French and Spanish left a more lasting impression than the Portuqese in culture,language,etc. The Moroccans were more a collection of smaller city states including Turag,Berber, and Arab cities.

LPCA · 27th March 2009, 03:07 PM

Yes, Ward, that's right, workshops were not large plants, but tiny craftmen surface.
Have a look to this postcard circa 1900 in Oran.

As for the process, manufacturing was organised in 5 guilds in Tetouan (idem elsewhere)
barrels (dja' ibi) from imported iron or bronze.
locks (znaidi)
stocks
assembly
decoration
The parts circulated from the souks of the smiths & cabinet makers to end in the souk of the jewelers, as Marrakesh even today has.

Louis-Pierre

ward · 28th March 2009, 02:49 AM

yes that picture gives a good picture of how work is performed in shops. You have one piece done by blacksmiths,another does the gold,silver,or niello work. next the stock is carved and various pieces are added on such as lock ramrod,screws. Next another shop is visited and silver,brass,stones are added and finally another shop is visited to add any inscriptions that are engraved. One finished product goes thru a lot of hands before it is finished.

In Tunisa I saw the process being done in a shop AK's right beside early blunderbuss's and shotguns. Morocco is a little more sedate these days.

LPCA · 28th March 2009, 06:45 AM

See also this postcard of an Ali-Baba cavern. Tunis circa 1900 with a stamp REGENCE DE TUNIS.
A lot of very good things.... saïfs, berber & kable muskets, ....and carpets of course.
The Regency of Tunis had the same firearms process as Morocco, but at a less important scale. They had a foundry and a forge of artillery (Algiers & Tripoli never had) and for light firearms, their speciality was the marine (navy) blunderbuss.
On this link, you will see a nice example of a tunisian (berber type) musket of mine.
http://blade.japet.com/B-mok-tunis.htm

Louis-Pierre

Jim McDougall · 28th March 2009, 05:29 PM

Louis Pierre and Ward, thank you so much for sharing these wonderful windows into the past showing the very places where these weapons were created! and the details of their assembly.
It really is amazing to see these weapons of so long ago themselves, but to see how and where they were created truly adds new dimension to our appreciation of them.

I spent some time looking through some references last night, and found that sabres from Algeria (presumably these 'nimcha') typically had German or Italian blades, and in one line illustration this circular stamp is shown on a blade in the exactly same quadrant. Apparantly then, foreign blades being mounted were indeed stamped with these marks, and sometimes even with subsequent markings in later refurbishing.

Interesting to see how 'travelled' these blades often were.

All the best,
Jim

27th March 2009, 03:07 PM	#3
LPCA Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Toulouse - FRANCE Posts: 83	Yes, Ward, that's right, workshops were not large plants, but tiny craftmen surface. Have a look to this postcard circa 1900 in Oran. As for the process, manufacturing was organised in 5 guilds in Tetouan (idem elsewhere) barrels (dja' ibi) from imported iron or bronze. locks (znaidi) stocks assembly decoration The parts circulated from the souks of the smiths & cabinet makers to end in the souk of the jewelers, as Marrakesh even today has. Louis-Pierre Attached Images

28th March 2009, 06:45 AM	#5
LPCA Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Toulouse - FRANCE Posts: 83	See also this postcard of an Ali-Baba cavern. Tunis circa 1900 with a stamp REGENCE DE TUNIS. A lot of very good things.... saïfs, berber & kable muskets, ....and carpets of course. The Regency of Tunis had the same firearms process as Morocco, but at a less important scale. They had a foundry and a forge of artillery (Algiers & Tripoli never had) and for light firearms, their speciality was the marine (navy) blunderbuss. On this link, you will see a nice example of a tunisian (berber type) musket of mine. http://blade.japet.com/B-mok-tunis.htm Louis-Pierre Attached Images

27th March 2009, 07:41 AM	#1
LPCA Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Toulouse - FRANCE Posts: 83	Hello. Morocco had from the beginning XVI ° an army equipped with artillery and with arquebuses used against Malta in 1562 and against portuguais in 1578. The foundries of bronze artillery were settled in Fes, Marrakesh and Taroudant and the bronze and iron were imported from Europe. For the portable weapons (blades and light firearms), it was Targist, Fèz and especially Tétouan - center considered during several centuries until 1920. From the beginning of XVI °, the Atlantic coast of Morocco lives to settle down a chain of portuguaises factories (Feitoria) from Tangier to Agadir where from dealt, in particular, firearms. From the end of XVI °, this business became intensified with the Northern Europe. England, Holland and France delivered big quantities of pieces and mounted weapons, while the powder came from Italy. In XIX °, start the imports from Liège. Except this business, the supply also resulted from the barbaresque enclave of Salé, as i said it yet. So, i suppose that if they were able to forge barrels, they can also forge blades of Nimcha. As for the hilt, usually they are horn made. Those with rhino horn (imported from sub-desert areas) were mostly reserved to sultan's guard (as for Koummiya hilts) and officers or special order for rich people. So, David, I suggest your hilt is not wood but horn or rhino horn (they resist better to high temperature). Easy to know it you sand smoothly your hilt. Best to everybody. Louis-Pierre

27th March 2009, 01:54 PM	#2
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Regarding laquer do not sand you will lose the patina underneath. use a little acetone on a rag and it should take it off. If it is resistant soak it for a few minutes it will get sticky at first and then you can rub it or use a toothbrush with it gentle cleanings are much better than sandings. Regarding workshops these are not the massive shops that were and are prevelant in the more european countries. Most are a small shop roughly 30 x 12 ft with a few people working. There are still a few blacksmith shops in Fes and Meknas currently. The French and Spanish left a more lasting impression than the Portuqese in culture,language,etc. The Moroccans were more a collection of smaller city states including Turag,Berber, and Arab cities.

28th March 2009, 02:49 AM	#4
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	yes that picture gives a good picture of how work is performed in shops. You have one piece done by blacksmiths,another does the gold,silver,or niello work. next the stock is carved and various pieces are added on such as lock ramrod,screws. Next another shop is visited and silver,brass,stones are added and finally another shop is visited to add any inscriptions that are engraved. One finished product goes thru a lot of hands before it is finished. In Tunisa I saw the process being done in a shop AK's right beside early blunderbuss's and shotguns. Morocco is a little more sedate these days.

28th March 2009, 05:29 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Louis Pierre and Ward, thank you so much for sharing these wonderful windows into the past showing the very places where these weapons were created! and the details of their assembly. It really is amazing to see these weapons of so long ago themselves, but to see how and where they were created truly adds new dimension to our appreciation of them. I spent some time looking through some references last night, and found that sabres from Algeria (presumably these 'nimcha') typically had German or Italian blades, and in one line illustration this circular stamp is shown on a blade in the exactly same quadrant. Apparantly then, foreign blades being mounted were indeed stamped with these marks, and sometimes even with subsequent markings in later refurbishing. Interesting to see how 'travelled' these blades often were. All the best, Jim