Moroccan sa'if help please

Jim McDougall · 25th March 2009, 08:00 PM

Thank you so much Louis Pierre for answering my question, and for the great perspective on this!
I am really inspired to learn more on these nimchas at this point. Its funny how one gets the impression they have it down on a certain weapon form, then realize they didnt really know as much as they thought!

so I gotta get busy on more research.

Thank you David for the additional photos, nicely done!

All best regards,
Jim

LPCA · 26th March 2009, 07:34 AM

Hello, everybody.

Please David, would you answer my question about the hilt and its black color.... i never saw such a coloured hilt on a Nimcha....

Jim, i would like to add some comments to my last answer on french/Maghrib relations.

I gave you historical point of view.
BUT, nothing new under the sun !!, if official position was as square, trade between Marseille and Maghrib never stopped really and the Jewish trade connection between the 2 banks of the mediterranée played a key role.

At first, Tunis saw a very important decline of the corsair activities and returned in a normal maritime business.
Then, the french flag was more or less privileged with regard to that of the other nations ships of which continued to be catched
So, as often, truth is at a middle point

Friendly
Louis-Pierre.

ward · 26th March 2009, 10:55 AM

The handle of this nimcha is just lacquer that has been burned. You would have to strip it to find if it is horn or wood. Regarding weapons workshops in Morrocco they are there and were in some of the larger cities. The french,portugese,and spanish have all invaded sections of Morocco at one time or another. Some of these european blades yes were captured in conflict but it is more likely most came from trade.

macandjenny · 27th March 2009, 05:20 AM

Hi Louis-Pierre,
My apologes for the delay. I think I said in my first post that the sword was in a house fire approximately 40 years ago here in Australia. My initial logic had been, "if it is a wooden handle it would have surely suffered more damage than I can see.....so maybe it is bone/rhino horn". Not that I know what sort of grains horn material has! However, looking at the photo attached I'm now leaning towards wood. Any thoughts anyone please.
Thank you "Ward" for your info on the covering being burned lacquer. Were these handles originally lacquered??
Anyway, once again many thanks to all contributors...my appreciation.
David

Jim McDougall · 27th March 2009, 06:05 AM

Hi David,
In reviewing the excellent work that Louis Pierre has compiled on the nimcha, there is an 18th century example identified as Moroccan, which has similar blade form, and a stamped mark similar to yours in like location on the blade.
It would seem to further emphasize the Moroccan origin and of the correct period.
Also, in looking at the interesting style of the blade sectioning, there seems to be a particular 'stepped' effect that reminds me a great deal of the blades found on the 'koummya' daggers, also Moroccan. While these, like the nimcha can be found in use throughout the Maghreb as far as Tunis, the key centers for manufacture were typically in Moroccan regions.

A note on the lacquering, in my experience, very old weapons collections often seem to have swords etc. painted over with lacquer, as a preservative. I have seen many extremely old swords covered in yellowed lacquer as they were auctioned from very old estate sales.
Whether horn or wood, I would defer to Louis Pierre or Ward, but it is my impression these hilts were usually with horn grips.

All the best,
Jim

LPCA · 27th March 2009, 07:41 AM

Hello.

Morocco had from the beginning XVI ° an army equipped with artillery and with arquebuses used against Malta in 1562 and against portuguais in 1578. The foundries of bronze artillery were settled in Fes, Marrakesh and Taroudant and the bronze and iron were imported from Europe.
For the portable weapons (blades and light firearms), it was Targist, Fèz and especially Tétouan - center considered during several centuries until 1920.
From the beginning of XVI °, the Atlantic coast of Morocco lives to settle down a chain of portuguaises factories (Feitoria) from Tangier to Agadir where from dealt, in particular, firearms.
From the end of XVI °, this business became intensified with the Northern Europe.
England, Holland and France delivered big quantities of pieces and mounted weapons, while the powder came from Italy.
In XIX °, start the imports from Liège.
Except this business, the supply also resulted from the barbaresque enclave of Salé, as i said it yet.
So, i suppose that if they were able to forge barrels, they can also forge blades of Nimcha.

As for the hilt, usually they are horn made. Those with rhino horn (imported from sub-desert areas) were mostly reserved to sultan's guard (as for Koummiya hilts) and officers or special order for rich people.

So, David, I suggest your hilt is not wood but horn or rhino horn (they resist better to high temperature). Easy to know it you sand smoothly your hilt.

Best to everybody.

Louis-Pierre

ward · 27th March 2009, 01:54 PM

Regarding laquer do not sand you will lose the patina underneath. use a little acetone on a rag and it should take it off. If it is resistant soak it for a few minutes it will get sticky at first and then you can rub it or use a toothbrush with it gentle cleanings are much better than sandings.

Regarding workshops these are not the massive shops that were and are prevelant in the more european countries. Most are a small shop roughly 30 x 12 ft with a few people working. There are still a few blacksmith shops in Fes and Meknas currently. The French and Spanish left a more lasting impression than the Portuqese in culture,language,etc. The Moroccans were more a collection of smaller city states including Turag,Berber, and Arab cities.

27th March 2009, 05:20 AM	#4
macandjenny Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 4	Blackened Handle Hi Louis-Pierre, My apologes for the delay. I think I said in my first post that the sword was in a house fire approximately 40 years ago here in Australia. My initial logic had been, "if it is a wooden handle it would have surely suffered more damage than I can see.....so maybe it is bone/rhino horn". Not that I know what sort of grains horn material has! However, looking at the photo attached I'm now leaning towards wood. Any thoughts anyone please. Thank you "Ward" for your info on the covering being burned lacquer. Were these handles originally lacquered?? Anyway, once again many thanks to all contributors...my appreciation. David Attached Images

25th March 2009, 08:00 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,474	Thank you so much Louis Pierre for answering my question, and for the great perspective on this! I am really inspired to learn more on these nimchas at this point. Its funny how one gets the impression they have it down on a certain weapon form, then realize they didnt really know as much as they thought! so I gotta get busy on more research. Thank you David for the additional photos, nicely done! All best regards, Jim

26th March 2009, 07:34 AM	#2
LPCA Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Toulouse - FRANCE Posts: 83	Hello, everybody. Please David, would you answer my question about the hilt and its black color.... i never saw such a coloured hilt on a Nimcha.... Jim, i would like to add some comments to my last answer on french/Maghrib relations. I gave you historical point of view. BUT, nothing new under the sun !!, if official position was as square, trade between Marseille and Maghrib never stopped really and the Jewish trade connection between the 2 banks of the mediterranée played a key role. At first, Tunis saw a very important decline of the corsair activities and returned in a normal maritime business. Then, the french flag was more or less privileged with regard to that of the other nations ships of which continued to be catched So, as often, truth is at a middle point Friendly Louis-Pierre.

26th March 2009, 10:55 AM	#3
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	The handle of this nimcha is just lacquer that has been burned. You would have to strip it to find if it is horn or wood. Regarding weapons workshops in Morrocco they are there and were in some of the larger cities. The french,portugese,and spanish have all invaded sections of Morocco at one time or another. Some of these european blades yes were captured in conflict but it is more likely most came from trade.

27th March 2009, 06:05 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,474	Hi David, In reviewing the excellent work that Louis Pierre has compiled on the nimcha, there is an 18th century example identified as Moroccan, which has similar blade form, and a stamped mark similar to yours in like location on the blade. It would seem to further emphasize the Moroccan origin and of the correct period. Also, in looking at the interesting style of the blade sectioning, there seems to be a particular 'stepped' effect that reminds me a great deal of the blades found on the 'koummya' daggers, also Moroccan. While these, like the nimcha can be found in use throughout the Maghreb as far as Tunis, the key centers for manufacture were typically in Moroccan regions. A note on the lacquering, in my experience, very old weapons collections often seem to have swords etc. painted over with lacquer, as a preservative. I have seen many extremely old swords covered in yellowed lacquer as they were auctioned from very old estate sales. Whether horn or wood, I would defer to Louis Pierre or Ward, but it is my impression these hilts were usually with horn grips. All the best, Jim

27th March 2009, 07:41 AM	#6
LPCA Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Toulouse - FRANCE Posts: 83	Hello. Morocco had from the beginning XVI ° an army equipped with artillery and with arquebuses used against Malta in 1562 and against portuguais in 1578. The foundries of bronze artillery were settled in Fes, Marrakesh and Taroudant and the bronze and iron were imported from Europe. For the portable weapons (blades and light firearms), it was Targist, Fèz and especially Tétouan - center considered during several centuries until 1920. From the beginning of XVI °, the Atlantic coast of Morocco lives to settle down a chain of portuguaises factories (Feitoria) from Tangier to Agadir where from dealt, in particular, firearms. From the end of XVI °, this business became intensified with the Northern Europe. England, Holland and France delivered big quantities of pieces and mounted weapons, while the powder came from Italy. In XIX °, start the imports from Liège. Except this business, the supply also resulted from the barbaresque enclave of Salé, as i said it yet. So, i suppose that if they were able to forge barrels, they can also forge blades of Nimcha. As for the hilt, usually they are horn made. Those with rhino horn (imported from sub-desert areas) were mostly reserved to sultan's guard (as for Koummiya hilts) and officers or special order for rich people. So, David, I suggest your hilt is not wood but horn or rhino horn (they resist better to high temperature). Easy to know it you sand smoothly your hilt. Best to everybody. Louis-Pierre

27th March 2009, 01:54 PM	#7
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Regarding laquer do not sand you will lose the patina underneath. use a little acetone on a rag and it should take it off. If it is resistant soak it for a few minutes it will get sticky at first and then you can rub it or use a toothbrush with it gentle cleanings are much better than sandings. Regarding workshops these are not the massive shops that were and are prevelant in the more european countries. Most are a small shop roughly 30 x 12 ft with a few people working. There are still a few blacksmith shops in Fes and Meknas currently. The French and Spanish left a more lasting impression than the Portuqese in culture,language,etc. The Moroccans were more a collection of smaller city states including Turag,Berber, and Arab cities.