Moroccan sa'if help please

LPCA · 24th March 2009, 07:06 AM

Bonjour, friends.

David, may i have the size of the blade only, the thickness of the back and if possible a close-up of the blade showing the fuller. The shape looks very near from one of mine.
As for the stamp, never seen this round type in maghrig craftmen markings. In fact, only Morocco should be seriously concerned, but for the barrels stamped sometimes with test and factory's marks (little square stamp of Tetouan, ...) . The stronger way may be a craftman'mark...

I shall go on searching on the way of Zanzibar...!!!

Louis-Pierre

macandjenny · 25th March 2009, 08:44 AM

Hello Louis-Pierre,

To try and answer your questions...

1. the length of the blade from where it attaches to the hilt (correct term?)(along a straight line so not allowing for the curve is abour 80 cms

2. The fuller is (sort of) shown in pic called "sword13" attached. It ends about 8 cms from the tip of the sword

3. The best I can do on the 'back' of the sword is the attached photo "sword12"

4. I have added another photo of the 'butt' of the sword if of any help.

Many thanks to you and all of you who are helping me.....I cannot express properly my thanks and appreciation. I love how you are so passionate about this subject (mine are French & English antiques, golf and wine....different but as long as one has a passion for something then that is fullfilling

)

Jim McDougall · 25th March 2009, 12:34 PM

Hi Louis Pierre,
Thank you for the observations, and I'm so glad to see you posting on this.
I think you make a very good point on the touchmark often seen on gun barrels, and as you note, Morocco is of course a likely provenance. The possibility of a makers mark is well placed also it would seem. I have heard of one other instance of this type stamp on a nimcha, though have not seen it, and it was of Moroccan origin...not sure of dates.

Not sure of Zanzibar, do you think that center may be connected ? What was the French presence there like c.1800-15?

I received a PM from David, and further photos are pending, I am checking on status in our process.

All the best,
Jim

LPCA · 25th March 2009, 02:07 PM

hi, friends.

Thanks, David, for your answer.

Length of mine (see images 1 & 2) from guard to tip is 90cm.+/-, so it's longer, but a same blade's profile. I wonder about the black color of your hilt (seems painted...) What is it ? is that wood under this color?.

As for the marking, it seems to be as like a stamp of a craftman, not translatable and i agree with Dom.

I have the same problem with this sa¨f-nimcha made in Zanzibar for Peninsula (Oman). As you can see, it is a short & heavy blade done for maritime purpose.
It illustrates perfectly the term NIMCHA - short blade-.

I would say with prudence that usually a cavalry nimcha from Morocco has a pure long blade without any markings. i observed that difference is done by embellishments of the guard (koftghari) or of the ring on the base of the handle (silver) and of course of the material of the hilt itself (rhino horn, ...) and of the scabbard. Otherwise , they are very sober.

What is different is the use by the pirates ( bararesques ) of nimcha with foreign blades.
The pirates of the enclave of Salé (near Rabat) as well as those of Algiers, Tunis & tripoli had never have problem to obtain european blades from boats capture.
For instance, in 7 years (1609 to 1616), Algiers Regency captured 466 english ships not included the ships of others nationality.....
That explains mostly why there was not workshops in the Maghrib, but only reassembly and transformation activities. For instance, we discussed some time ago about one of my Nimcha with a shortend blade of baskethilt forged in Germany, ....
Now, i must say honestly that in Morocco (Tetouan, Fes, ....), existed workshops of forge of firearms' barrels and the same in Tunis (not in Algiers & Tripoli). So, we can guess that it would had been possible to forge blades!! Why not?. But this subject is for the moment not resolved for me.

I stop here for the moment.
See U.
Louis-Pierre

LPCA · 25th March 2009, 02:27 PM

Here again.
First, please be indulgent with my faults. It is not easy to write in so fast English that we think in French...

I would like to give an answer to my friend Jim.

What was the French presence there like c.1800-15?

The french Revolution (1789) were in conflict with Istanboul, so with the Ponant regencies (Algiers, Tunis & Tripoli). It increased with Bonaparte's expédition in Egypt (1798 - 1801) untill the Napoleon's fall (1815).
In 1818, the congress of Aix-la-Chapelle, european nations decided to end with regencies. In 1830, France stopped it definitively.

Best for you.
Louis-Pierre

Jim McDougall · 25th March 2009, 08:00 PM

Thank you so much Louis Pierre for answering my question, and for the great perspective on this!
I am really inspired to learn more on these nimchas at this point. Its funny how one gets the impression they have it down on a certain weapon form, then realize they didnt really know as much as they thought!

so I gotta get busy on more research.

Thank you David for the additional photos, nicely done!

All best regards,
Jim

LPCA · 26th March 2009, 07:34 AM

Hello, everybody.

Please David, would you answer my question about the hilt and its black color.... i never saw such a coloured hilt on a Nimcha....

Jim, i would like to add some comments to my last answer on french/Maghrib relations.

I gave you historical point of view.
BUT, nothing new under the sun !!, if official position was as square, trade between Marseille and Maghrib never stopped really and the Jewish trade connection between the 2 banks of the mediterranée played a key role.

At first, Tunis saw a very important decline of the corsair activities and returned in a normal maritime business.
Then, the french flag was more or less privileged with regard to that of the other nations ships of which continued to be catched
So, as often, truth is at a middle point

Friendly
Louis-Pierre.

ward · 26th March 2009, 10:55 AM

The handle of this nimcha is just lacquer that has been burned. You would have to strip it to find if it is horn or wood. Regarding weapons workshops in Morrocco they are there and were in some of the larger cities. The french,portugese,and spanish have all invaded sections of Morocco at one time or another. Some of these european blades yes were captured in conflict but it is more likely most came from trade.

25th March 2009, 08:44 AM	#2
macandjenny Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 4	Sword Dimensions Hello Louis-Pierre, To try and answer your questions... 1. the length of the blade from where it attaches to the hilt (correct term?)(along a straight line so not allowing for the curve is abour 80 cms 2. The fuller is (sort of) shown in pic called "sword13" attached. It ends about 8 cms from the tip of the sword 3. The best I can do on the 'back' of the sword is the attached photo "sword12" 4. I have added another photo of the 'butt' of the sword if of any help. Many thanks to you and all of you who are helping me.....I cannot express properly my thanks and appreciation. I love how you are so passionate about this subject (mine are French & English antiques, golf and wine....different but as long as one has a passion for something then that is fullfilling ) Attached Images

25th March 2009, 02:07 PM	#4
LPCA Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Toulouse - FRANCE Posts: 83	hi, friends. Thanks, David, for your answer. Length of mine (see images 1 & 2) from guard to tip is 90cm.+/-, so it's longer, but a same blade's profile. I wonder about the black color of your hilt (seems painted...) What is it ? is that wood under this color?. As for the marking, it seems to be as like a stamp of a craftman, not translatable and i agree with Dom. I have the same problem with this sa¨f-nimcha made in Zanzibar for Peninsula (Oman). As you can see, it is a short & heavy blade done for maritime purpose. It illustrates perfectly the term NIMCHA - short blade-. I would say with prudence that usually a cavalry nimcha from Morocco has a pure long blade without any markings. i observed that difference is done by embellishments of the guard (koftghari) or of the ring on the base of the handle (silver) and of course of the material of the hilt itself (rhino horn, ...) and of the scabbard. Otherwise , they are very sober. What is different is the use by the pirates ( bararesques ) of nimcha with foreign blades. The pirates of the enclave of Salé (near Rabat) as well as those of Algiers, Tunis & tripoli had never have problem to obtain european blades from boats capture. For instance, in 7 years (1609 to 1616), Algiers Regency captured 466 english ships not included the ships of others nationality..... That explains mostly why there was not workshops in the Maghrib, but only reassembly and transformation activities. For instance, we discussed some time ago about one of my Nimcha with a shortend blade of baskethilt forged in Germany, .... Now, i must say honestly that in Morocco (Tetouan, Fes, ....), existed workshops of forge of firearms' barrels and the same in Tunis (not in Algiers & Tripoli). So, we can guess that it would had been possible to forge blades!! Why not?. But this subject is for the moment not resolved for me. I stop here for the moment. See U. Louis-Pierre Attached Images

24th March 2009, 07:06 AM	#1
LPCA Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Toulouse - FRANCE Posts: 83	Bonjour, friends. David, may i have the size of the blade only, the thickness of the back and if possible a close-up of the blade showing the fuller. The shape looks very near from one of mine. As for the stamp, never seen this round type in maghrig craftmen markings. In fact, only Morocco should be seriously concerned, but for the barrels stamped sometimes with test and factory's marks (little square stamp of Tetouan, ...) . The stronger way may be a craftman'mark... I shall go on searching on the way of Zanzibar...!!! Louis-Pierre

25th March 2009, 12:34 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Louis Pierre, Thank you for the observations, and I'm so glad to see you posting on this. I think you make a very good point on the touchmark often seen on gun barrels, and as you note, Morocco is of course a likely provenance. The possibility of a makers mark is well placed also it would seem. I have heard of one other instance of this type stamp on a nimcha, though have not seen it, and it was of Moroccan origin...not sure of dates. Not sure of Zanzibar, do you think that center may be connected ? What was the French presence there like c.1800-15? I received a PM from David, and further photos are pending, I am checking on status in our process. All the best, Jim

25th March 2009, 02:27 PM	#5
LPCA Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Toulouse - FRANCE Posts: 83	Here again. First, please be indulgent with my faults. It is not easy to write in so fast English that we think in French... I would like to give an answer to my friend Jim. What was the French presence there like c.1800-15? The french Revolution (1789) were in conflict with Istanboul, so with the Ponant regencies (Algiers, Tunis & Tripoli). It increased with Bonaparte's expédition in Egypt (1798 - 1801) untill the Napoleon's fall (1815). In 1818, the congress of Aix-la-Chapelle, european nations decided to end with regencies. In 1830, France stopped it definitively. Best for you. Louis-Pierre

25th March 2009, 08:00 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Thank you so much Louis Pierre for answering my question, and for the great perspective on this! I am really inspired to learn more on these nimchas at this point. Its funny how one gets the impression they have it down on a certain weapon form, then realize they didnt really know as much as they thought! so I gotta get busy on more research. Thank you David for the additional photos, nicely done! All best regards, Jim

26th March 2009, 07:34 AM	#7
LPCA Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Toulouse - FRANCE Posts: 83	Hello, everybody. Please David, would you answer my question about the hilt and its black color.... i never saw such a coloured hilt on a Nimcha.... Jim, i would like to add some comments to my last answer on french/Maghrib relations. I gave you historical point of view. BUT, nothing new under the sun !!, if official position was as square, trade between Marseille and Maghrib never stopped really and the Jewish trade connection between the 2 banks of the mediterranée played a key role. At first, Tunis saw a very important decline of the corsair activities and returned in a normal maritime business. Then, the french flag was more or less privileged with regard to that of the other nations ships of which continued to be catched So, as often, truth is at a middle point Friendly Louis-Pierre.

26th March 2009, 10:55 AM	#8
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	The handle of this nimcha is just lacquer that has been burned. You would have to strip it to find if it is horn or wood. Regarding weapons workshops in Morrocco they are there and were in some of the larger cities. The french,portugese,and spanish have all invaded sections of Morocco at one time or another. Some of these european blades yes were captured in conflict but it is more likely most came from trade.