Moroccan sa'if help please

Dom · 23rd March 2009, 11:53 PM

Hi Gentlemen

what I'm seing .... is a stamp ...
stamp for blacksmith, I suppose

unfortunatly, if it's looks a little bite like letters,
it's just a design without signification

I mean for arabic readers or speakers

those stamps may be find
on tin objects
or brass coffee pot,
even in silvery
not strange to find stamp of craftsman, or blacksmith

stamp could be ;
- initials
but also design;
- "lion" for Assad Allah for instance .. famous Irako-Syrian blancksmith for blades

Rgds

à +

Dom

Jim McDougall · 24th March 2009, 03:01 AM

Hi Dom,
Thank you for coming in on this. Very interesting comments on this stamp, and the reference to the familiar Assad Allah stamps on many of the trade blades which became commonly used in so many regions.

Going with the provenance notes on this with reference to France and the years noted. It should be noted that these swords were particularly associated in many cases with the Ottoman corsairs (commonly termed Barbary pirates). France was engaged in considerable conflicts in Egypt and the Levant in 1798-99 with Ottoman forces, and it would not be hard to imagine that these sa'if found use in those regions, even though they are typically considered a Moroccan form. The form of hilt itself has history as early as the end of the 16th, and remained in use in the Maghreb well into the 19th century.

This sabre would seem to possibly have been a trophy from these events in these regions. It is always interesting to have some degree of provenance with these weapons as it establishes developmental bench marks for the form.

Thank you again Dom, for the help with the marking, and observations.
The example Krockew has posted seems a great deal like this one also. Has anybody seen similar stamps in blades at this location on the blade?

All the best,
Jim

LPCA · 24th March 2009, 07:06 AM

Bonjour, friends.

David, may i have the size of the blade only, the thickness of the back and if possible a close-up of the blade showing the fuller. The shape looks very near from one of mine.
As for the stamp, never seen this round type in maghrig craftmen markings. In fact, only Morocco should be seriously concerned, but for the barrels stamped sometimes with test and factory's marks (little square stamp of Tetouan, ...) . The stronger way may be a craftman'mark...

I shall go on searching on the way of Zanzibar...!!!

Louis-Pierre

macandjenny · 25th March 2009, 08:44 AM

Hello Louis-Pierre,

To try and answer your questions...

1. the length of the blade from where it attaches to the hilt (correct term?)(along a straight line so not allowing for the curve is abour 80 cms

2. The fuller is (sort of) shown in pic called "sword13" attached. It ends about 8 cms from the tip of the sword

3. The best I can do on the 'back' of the sword is the attached photo "sword12"

4. I have added another photo of the 'butt' of the sword if of any help.

Many thanks to you and all of you who are helping me.....I cannot express properly my thanks and appreciation. I love how you are so passionate about this subject (mine are French & English antiques, golf and wine....different but as long as one has a passion for something then that is fullfilling

)

Jim McDougall · 25th March 2009, 12:34 PM

Hi Louis Pierre,
Thank you for the observations, and I'm so glad to see you posting on this.
I think you make a very good point on the touchmark often seen on gun barrels, and as you note, Morocco is of course a likely provenance. The possibility of a makers mark is well placed also it would seem. I have heard of one other instance of this type stamp on a nimcha, though have not seen it, and it was of Moroccan origin...not sure of dates.

Not sure of Zanzibar, do you think that center may be connected ? What was the French presence there like c.1800-15?

I received a PM from David, and further photos are pending, I am checking on status in our process.

All the best,
Jim

LPCA · 25th March 2009, 02:07 PM

hi, friends.

Thanks, David, for your answer.

Length of mine (see images 1 & 2) from guard to tip is 90cm.+/-, so it's longer, but a same blade's profile. I wonder about the black color of your hilt (seems painted...) What is it ? is that wood under this color?.

As for the marking, it seems to be as like a stamp of a craftman, not translatable and i agree with Dom.

I have the same problem with this sa¨f-nimcha made in Zanzibar for Peninsula (Oman). As you can see, it is a short & heavy blade done for maritime purpose.
It illustrates perfectly the term NIMCHA - short blade-.

I would say with prudence that usually a cavalry nimcha from Morocco has a pure long blade without any markings. i observed that difference is done by embellishments of the guard (koftghari) or of the ring on the base of the handle (silver) and of course of the material of the hilt itself (rhino horn, ...) and of the scabbard. Otherwise , they are very sober.

What is different is the use by the pirates ( bararesques ) of nimcha with foreign blades.
The pirates of the enclave of Salé (near Rabat) as well as those of Algiers, Tunis & tripoli had never have problem to obtain european blades from boats capture.
For instance, in 7 years (1609 to 1616), Algiers Regency captured 466 english ships not included the ships of others nationality.....
That explains mostly why there was not workshops in the Maghrib, but only reassembly and transformation activities. For instance, we discussed some time ago about one of my Nimcha with a shortend blade of baskethilt forged in Germany, ....
Now, i must say honestly that in Morocco (Tetouan, Fes, ....), existed workshops of forge of firearms' barrels and the same in Tunis (not in Algiers & Tripoli). So, we can guess that it would had been possible to forge blades!! Why not?. But this subject is for the moment not resolved for me.

I stop here for the moment.
See U.
Louis-Pierre

LPCA · 25th March 2009, 02:27 PM

Here again.
First, please be indulgent with my faults. It is not easy to write in so fast English that we think in French...

I would like to give an answer to my friend Jim.

What was the French presence there like c.1800-15?

The french Revolution (1789) were in conflict with Istanboul, so with the Ponant regencies (Algiers, Tunis & Tripoli). It increased with Bonaparte's expédition in Egypt (1798 - 1801) untill the Napoleon's fall (1815).
In 1818, the congress of Aix-la-Chapelle, european nations decided to end with regencies. In 1830, France stopped it definitively.

Best for you.
Louis-Pierre

Jim McDougall · 25th March 2009, 08:00 PM

Thank you so much Louis Pierre for answering my question, and for the great perspective on this!
I am really inspired to learn more on these nimchas at this point. Its funny how one gets the impression they have it down on a certain weapon form, then realize they didnt really know as much as they thought!

so I gotta get busy on more research.

Thank you David for the additional photos, nicely done!

All best regards,
Jim

25th March 2009, 08:44 AM	#4
macandjenny Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 4	Sword Dimensions Hello Louis-Pierre, To try and answer your questions... 1. the length of the blade from where it attaches to the hilt (correct term?)(along a straight line so not allowing for the curve is abour 80 cms 2. The fuller is (sort of) shown in pic called "sword13" attached. It ends about 8 cms from the tip of the sword 3. The best I can do on the 'back' of the sword is the attached photo "sword12" 4. I have added another photo of the 'butt' of the sword if of any help. Many thanks to you and all of you who are helping me.....I cannot express properly my thanks and appreciation. I love how you are so passionate about this subject (mine are French & English antiques, golf and wine....different but as long as one has a passion for something then that is fullfilling ) Attached Images

25th March 2009, 02:07 PM	#6
LPCA Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Toulouse - FRANCE Posts: 83	hi, friends. Thanks, David, for your answer. Length of mine (see images 1 & 2) from guard to tip is 90cm.+/-, so it's longer, but a same blade's profile. I wonder about the black color of your hilt (seems painted...) What is it ? is that wood under this color?. As for the marking, it seems to be as like a stamp of a craftman, not translatable and i agree with Dom. I have the same problem with this sa¨f-nimcha made in Zanzibar for Peninsula (Oman). As you can see, it is a short & heavy blade done for maritime purpose. It illustrates perfectly the term NIMCHA - short blade-. I would say with prudence that usually a cavalry nimcha from Morocco has a pure long blade without any markings. i observed that difference is done by embellishments of the guard (koftghari) or of the ring on the base of the handle (silver) and of course of the material of the hilt itself (rhino horn, ...) and of the scabbard. Otherwise , they are very sober. What is different is the use by the pirates ( bararesques ) of nimcha with foreign blades. The pirates of the enclave of Salé (near Rabat) as well as those of Algiers, Tunis & tripoli had never have problem to obtain european blades from boats capture. For instance, in 7 years (1609 to 1616), Algiers Regency captured 466 english ships not included the ships of others nationality..... That explains mostly why there was not workshops in the Maghrib, but only reassembly and transformation activities. For instance, we discussed some time ago about one of my Nimcha with a shortend blade of baskethilt forged in Germany, .... Now, i must say honestly that in Morocco (Tetouan, Fes, ....), existed workshops of forge of firearms' barrels and the same in Tunis (not in Algiers & Tripoli). So, we can guess that it would had been possible to forge blades!! Why not?. But this subject is for the moment not resolved for me. I stop here for the moment. See U. Louis-Pierre Attached Images

23rd March 2009, 11:53 PM	#1
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	Hi Gentlemen what I'm seing .... is a stamp ... stamp for blacksmith, I suppose unfortunatly, if it's looks a little bite like letters, it's just a design without signification I mean for arabic readers or speakers those stamps may be find on tin objects or brass coffee pot, even in silvery not strange to find stamp of craftsman, or blacksmith stamp could be ; - initials but also design; - "lion" for Assad Allah for instance .. famous Irako-Syrian blancksmith for blades Rgds à + Dom

24th March 2009, 03:01 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,505	Hi Dom, Thank you for coming in on this. Very interesting comments on this stamp, and the reference to the familiar Assad Allah stamps on many of the trade blades which became commonly used in so many regions. Going with the provenance notes on this with reference to France and the years noted. It should be noted that these swords were particularly associated in many cases with the Ottoman corsairs (commonly termed Barbary pirates). France was engaged in considerable conflicts in Egypt and the Levant in 1798-99 with Ottoman forces, and it would not be hard to imagine that these sa'if found use in those regions, even though they are typically considered a Moroccan form. The form of hilt itself has history as early as the end of the 16th, and remained in use in the Maghreb well into the 19th century. This sabre would seem to possibly have been a trophy from these events in these regions. It is always interesting to have some degree of provenance with these weapons as it establishes developmental bench marks for the form. Thank you again Dom, for the help with the marking, and observations. The example Krockew has posted seems a great deal like this one also. Has anybody seen similar stamps in blades at this location on the blade? All the best, Jim

24th March 2009, 07:06 AM	#3
LPCA Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Toulouse - FRANCE Posts: 83	Bonjour, friends. David, may i have the size of the blade only, the thickness of the back and if possible a close-up of the blade showing the fuller. The shape looks very near from one of mine. As for the stamp, never seen this round type in maghrig craftmen markings. In fact, only Morocco should be seriously concerned, but for the barrels stamped sometimes with test and factory's marks (little square stamp of Tetouan, ...) . The stronger way may be a craftman'mark... I shall go on searching on the way of Zanzibar...!!! Louis-Pierre

25th March 2009, 12:34 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,505	Hi Louis Pierre, Thank you for the observations, and I'm so glad to see you posting on this. I think you make a very good point on the touchmark often seen on gun barrels, and as you note, Morocco is of course a likely provenance. The possibility of a makers mark is well placed also it would seem. I have heard of one other instance of this type stamp on a nimcha, though have not seen it, and it was of Moroccan origin...not sure of dates. Not sure of Zanzibar, do you think that center may be connected ? What was the French presence there like c.1800-15? I received a PM from David, and further photos are pending, I am checking on status in our process. All the best, Jim

25th March 2009, 02:27 PM	#7
LPCA Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Toulouse - FRANCE Posts: 83	Here again. First, please be indulgent with my faults. It is not easy to write in so fast English that we think in French... I would like to give an answer to my friend Jim. What was the French presence there like c.1800-15? The french Revolution (1789) were in conflict with Istanboul, so with the Ponant regencies (Algiers, Tunis & Tripoli). It increased with Bonaparte's expédition in Egypt (1798 - 1801) untill the Napoleon's fall (1815). In 1818, the congress of Aix-la-Chapelle, european nations decided to end with regencies. In 1830, France stopped it definitively. Best for you. Louis-Pierre

25th March 2009, 08:00 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,505	Thank you so much Louis Pierre for answering my question, and for the great perspective on this! I am really inspired to learn more on these nimchas at this point. Its funny how one gets the impression they have it down on a certain weapon form, then realize they didnt really know as much as they thought! so I gotta get busy on more research. Thank you David for the additional photos, nicely done! All best regards, Jim