unknown naski inscripted malchus blade?

Norman McCormick · 23rd March 2009, 06:42 PM

Hi Cornelis,
Is there any evidence of how the tang was affixed to a hilt e.g. peened, 'glued' etc.
My Regards,
Norman.

cornelistromp · 23rd March 2009, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Cornelis,
Is there any evidence of how the tang was affixed to a hilt e.g. peened, 'glued' etc.
My Regards,
Norman.

HI Norman,

no unfortunately it is not possible to tell.
but the tang goes from 7mm to 4mm thickness.

best regards

Norman McCormick · 24th March 2009, 09:26 PM

Hi Cornelis,
There are some odd things that I don't quite understand about this blade, although having said that I am far from qualified regarding blade technology. The blade to my mind appears to have been cast rather than forged and I'm sure I can see some regular tool marks that seem more modern. I hope that we can find some answers and to that end may I suggest you put the photo of the Arabic script on the Ethnographic Forum asking for a translation, this may go some way to resolving the mystery.
My Regards,
Norman.

G. McCormack · 25th March 2009, 05:26 AM

I think the cast appearance you are seeing is a result of firescale. Makes me think this blade was in a fire. ---or was just never finished much after heat treat

cornelistromp · 25th March 2009, 08:05 AM

thanks for your replies,

I don't think the blade has been cast , you can see hammertraces at the tang. my opinion is also that this balde has been in a fire, but should then the small gold inlays ,at the beginning and top of the higher fuller, not have been melted away?

I hope the translation can help out.

Best regards

Jim McDougall · 25th March 2009, 08:17 PM

It seems to me there is yet another possibility that may be worth at least considering for discussion. The profile of this blade tip, and the parallel fullers seem to suggest the general appearance of the 'scramasax' with its downward slope tip. This one seems to have lost a bit of the tip. The copper inlaid holes seem consistant with this practice in swords of medieval period, though the outlined dot motif I cannot say is common or well known.

The scramasax type weapons (in sword size) though I dont believe had the heavy forte, but again inviting other observations.Obviously not a Muslim sword form, but the inscription might suggest a captured weapon, and perhaps this item might be exactly in the situation suggested initially by Cornelistromp.

All the best,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 27th March 2009, 05:29 AM

I keep returning to this most intriguing sword blade, and the more I look at it, the more puzzling it seems.
The blade shape is truly unusual, and though I know the scramasax is of course too early (6th-10th c.) it is interesting that this blade tip has the similar downward slope tip, and the double fuller seen on a number of these. These weapons ranged from knives to sword length, but certainly do not seem this long, its the profile of the blade that this recalls. It would be most interesting to know more on where this blade was found.

Even more of a conundrum is the epigraphy concerning the inscriptions on the faces of the forte. While the magic square reference seems applicable, at least on one side, these various characters or symbols seem to correspond to various alphabets and numeral systems. While there do seem to be Arabic figures, some of the symbols resemble those found in alphabets from South Arabian to Berber in just comparing them. The 'square' seems comprised of various symbols of this sort rather than Arabic calligraphy. On the reverse side however, there appears some markings that do resemble Arabic.
Again, I am far from a linguist, so these are entirely lay observations.

Very much looking forward to more on this!

All best regards,
Jim

23rd March 2009, 06:42 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi Cornelis, Is there any evidence of how the tang was affixed to a hilt e.g. peened, 'glued' etc. My Regards, Norman.

24th March 2009, 09:26 PM	#3
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi Cornelis, There are some odd things that I don't quite understand about this blade, although having said that I am far from qualified regarding blade technology. The blade to my mind appears to have been cast rather than forged and I'm sure I can see some regular tool marks that seem more modern. I hope that we can find some answers and to that end may I suggest you put the photo of the Arabic script on the Ethnographic Forum asking for a translation, this may go some way to resolving the mystery. My Regards, Norman.

25th March 2009, 05:26 AM	#4
G. McCormack Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 131	I think the cast appearance you are seeing is a result of firescale. Makes me think this blade was in a fire. ---or was just never finished much after heat treat

25th March 2009, 08:05 AM	#5
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	thanks for your replies, I don't think the blade has been cast , you can see hammertraces at the tang. my opinion is also that this balde has been in a fire, but should then the small gold inlays ,at the beginning and top of the higher fuller, not have been melted away? I hope the translation can help out. Best regards

25th March 2009, 08:17 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	It seems to me there is yet another possibility that may be worth at least considering for discussion. The profile of this blade tip, and the parallel fullers seem to suggest the general appearance of the 'scramasax' with its downward slope tip. This one seems to have lost a bit of the tip. The copper inlaid holes seem consistant with this practice in swords of medieval period, though the outlined dot motif I cannot say is common or well known. The scramasax type weapons (in sword size) though I dont believe had the heavy forte, but again inviting other observations.Obviously not a Muslim sword form, but the inscription might suggest a captured weapon, and perhaps this item might be exactly in the situation suggested initially by Cornelistromp. All the best, Jim

27th March 2009, 05:29 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	I keep returning to this most intriguing sword blade, and the more I look at it, the more puzzling it seems. The blade shape is truly unusual, and though I know the scramasax is of course too early (6th-10th c.) it is interesting that this blade tip has the similar downward slope tip, and the double fuller seen on a number of these. These weapons ranged from knives to sword length, but certainly do not seem this long, its the profile of the blade that this recalls. It would be most interesting to know more on where this blade was found. Even more of a conundrum is the epigraphy concerning the inscriptions on the faces of the forte. While the magic square reference seems applicable, at least on one side, these various characters or symbols seem to correspond to various alphabets and numeral systems. While there do seem to be Arabic figures, some of the symbols resemble those found in alphabets from South Arabian to Berber in just comparing them. The 'square' seems comprised of various symbols of this sort rather than Arabic calligraphy. On the reverse side however, there appears some markings that do resemble Arabic. Again, I am far from a linguist, so these are entirely lay observations. Very much looking forward to more on this! All best regards, Jim