Tawdry Tulwar.

katana · 22nd March 2009, 10:27 PM

Hi Norman,
I'm beginning to wonder whether this is a British made Tulwar....

I'm hoping Jim or Jens may have some ideas

Regards David

Norman McCormick · 23rd March 2009, 05:55 PM

Hi,
A photo of the blade near the hilt, as you can see by the direction of the scratches it has been attacked with a sander/grinder up to the bottom of the langet and then 'sanded' in a different direction from there. I reckon it might take quite a bit to reverse this but it is possible, do you think this 'sanding' is period or is it a modern 'mistake'? David can you elucidate further on the British connection?
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. Jim/Jens any ideas welcomed.

katana · 24th March 2009, 11:52 AM

Hi Norman,
Robert Mole (Birmingham) produced a number of Tulwars to directly supply some Indian Regiments. However, the examples I can find do not have the same hilt. I believe several other swordsmiths also did the same....but cannot find the info.

The reason I suggested British manufacture was because of the '4' on the hilt ....I originally thought this could be a 'casting' number ie the 'mould' number. However , on relection the '4' seems to have been stamped and not 'cast'.......which would change the situation...somewhat

.

The obscured markings on the blade....do they look like a series of dots which may or may not appear to be smallish letters /numbers/ symbols....

It is a shame about the blade.....it is possible to remove the hilt......heat will loosen the resin and allow you to remove the blade.....that way you could grind out the majority of the deep scores ( little and often to prevent too much heat build up) and then resort to emery paper / 'wet and dry' ....gradually using finer grades.

Kind Regards David

Pukka Bundook · 24th March 2009, 07:59 PM

The Mole blades I have seen, have had wide, shallow fullers in them, a little like th 1796 pattern.
A Mole was recently sold on ebay, But the blade had been changed for an inferior one at some time, and the tang was not riveted through the pommel as it should have been for a Mole.

Mole hilts normally have a loop for a sword knot on the disc.

I still think this is mid 19th c.

I have a couple with "readable" armoury marks like this one.

Norman,
The power tool scratches are newish, and should come out with backed abrasive paper.
Best to remove hilt for this as David says.

All best,

Richard.

Norman McCormick · 24th March 2009, 08:57 PM

Hi David and Richard,
Thanks for the help guys. I did remember a forum member had a Mole Tulwar in the Swap Forum so I had a wee look. The blade is marked with the Mole stamp and has a different profile and, as you said Richard, the pommel disc has a rectangular attachment for a sword knot. Would be interesting to know for sure if a U.K. maker other than Mole made Tulwar blades. A point on the 'armoury/makers' marks, they must have been struck when the blade was hot as they are impressively deep. All the similar stamps I have seen, to my mind, were stamped on a cold blade, whether this is of any significance I don't know. As to the removal of the hilt, do you think the cautious use of a hot air gun would do the trick? There isn't a lot of resin left in the hilt so shouldn't be too difficult, maybe the tang will have a story to tell you never know. Thanks again for your assistance.
My Regards,
Norman.

katana · 24th March 2009, 10:29 PM

Hi Norman,
now that the paint has been removed I think Richard's suggestion as to age is about right.
As to removing the hilt.....this thread is interesting reading

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...in+tulwar+heat

If the 'gouges' are not too deep....careful use of a 'Dremmel' and fine grinding wheels could be a possibility. But, I suspect that hilt removal would be the easier (overall) option and the results better.

I'm still intrigued with the deep stamps on the blade, the upper and lower are the so-called 'eyelash marks'.... the centre one is the one that I'm most curios about.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=eyelash+mark
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=eyelash+mark

Kind Regards David

Jens Nordlunde · 25th March 2009, 02:14 PM

Hi Norman,

Nice work you are doing, and I am glad to see, that you go the slow way, and don’t start out with an acid bath

. On one of my blades someone had kept himself busy sharpening the edge with a file. A fact I did not enjoy much, as I knew how long time it would take to remove the marks by hand. Instead I used Dremel finishing abrasive buffs #511, and with a good result I may add, but you should only work on a small area, to see if it also works for you.

Before you go on reading, you should remember, that these hilts have been used over a very big area, so even if you see a tulwar with the same blade and hilt, with a provenience tying it to a specific place, yours could come from a different place.

I too have a tulwar with the marks you show. The hilt on mine is slimmer, decorated, and with a hand guard. On each side of the blade is the same stamp as on yours, but on mine there are also four suns, and on the ricasso a round stamp with the name Ibrahim. On the back of the blade there is a stamp with a letter and a number, the letter is K/KA/KAH and the number 76.

Jens

23rd March 2009, 05:55 PM	#2
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi, A photo of the blade near the hilt, as you can see by the direction of the scratches it has been attacked with a sander/grinder up to the bottom of the langet and then 'sanded' in a different direction from there. I reckon it might take quite a bit to reverse this but it is possible, do you think this 'sanding' is period or is it a modern 'mistake'? David can you elucidate further on the British connection? My Regards, Norman. P.S. Jim/Jens any ideas welcomed. Attached Images Last edited by Norman McCormick; 23rd March 2009 at 06:34 PM.

25th March 2009, 02:14 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Norman, Nice work you are doing, and I am glad to see, that you go the slow way, and don’t start out with an acid bath. On one of my blades someone had kept himself busy sharpening the edge with a file. A fact I did not enjoy much, as I knew how long time it would take to remove the marks by hand. Instead I used Dremel finishing abrasive buffs #511, and with a good result I may add, but you should only work on a small area, to see if it also works for you. Before you go on reading, you should remember, that these hilts have been used over a very big area, so even if you see a tulwar with the same blade and hilt, with a provenience tying it to a specific place, yours could come from a different place. I too have a tulwar with the marks you show. The hilt on mine is slimmer, decorated, and with a hand guard. On each side of the blade is the same stamp as on yours, but on mine there are also four suns, and on the ricasso a round stamp with the name Ibrahim. On the back of the blade there is a stamp with a letter and a number, the letter is K/KA/KAH and the number 76. Jens Attached Images

22nd March 2009, 10:27 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Norman, I'm beginning to wonder whether this is a British made Tulwar.... I'm hoping Jim or Jens may have some ideas Regards David

24th March 2009, 11:52 AM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Norman, Robert Mole (Birmingham) produced a number of Tulwars to directly supply some Indian Regiments. However, the examples I can find do not have the same hilt. I believe several other swordsmiths also did the same....but cannot find the info. The reason I suggested British manufacture was because of the '4' on the hilt ....I originally thought this could be a 'casting' number ie the 'mould' number. However , on relection the '4' seems to have been stamped and not 'cast'.......which would change the situation...somewhat . The obscured markings on the blade....do they look like a series of dots which may or may not appear to be smallish letters /numbers/ symbols.... It is a shame about the blade.....it is possible to remove the hilt......heat will loosen the resin and allow you to remove the blade.....that way you could grind out the majority of the deep scores ( little and often to prevent too much heat build up) and then resort to emery paper / 'wet and dry' ....gradually using finer grades. Kind Regards David

24th March 2009, 07:59 PM	#4
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	The Mole blades I have seen, have had wide, shallow fullers in them, a little like th 1796 pattern. A Mole was recently sold on ebay, But the blade had been changed for an inferior one at some time, and the tang was not riveted through the pommel as it should have been for a Mole. Mole hilts normally have a loop for a sword knot on the disc. I still think this is mid 19th c. I have a couple with "readable" armoury marks like this one. Norman, The power tool scratches are newish, and should come out with backed abrasive paper. Best to remove hilt for this as David says. All best, Richard.

24th March 2009, 08:57 PM	#5
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi David and Richard, Thanks for the help guys. I did remember a forum member had a Mole Tulwar in the Swap Forum so I had a wee look. The blade is marked with the Mole stamp and has a different profile and, as you said Richard, the pommel disc has a rectangular attachment for a sword knot. Would be interesting to know for sure if a U.K. maker other than Mole made Tulwar blades. A point on the 'armoury/makers' marks, they must have been struck when the blade was hot as they are impressively deep. All the similar stamps I have seen, to my mind, were stamped on a cold blade, whether this is of any significance I don't know. As to the removal of the hilt, do you think the cautious use of a hot air gun would do the trick? There isn't a lot of resin left in the hilt so shouldn't be too difficult, maybe the tang will have a story to tell you never know. Thanks again for your assistance. My Regards, Norman.

24th March 2009, 10:29 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Norman, now that the paint has been removed I think Richard's suggestion as to age is about right. As to removing the hilt.....this thread is interesting reading http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...in+tulwar+heat If the 'gouges' are not too deep....careful use of a 'Dremmel' and fine grinding wheels could be a possibility. But, I suspect that hilt removal would be the easier (overall) option and the results better. I'm still intrigued with the deep stamps on the blade, the upper and lower are the so-called 'eyelash marks'.... the centre one is the one that I'm most curios about. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=eyelash+mark http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=eyelash+mark Kind Regards David