Mid to Late 16th Century Patrons for Paper Cartridges

cornelistromp · 22nd March 2009, 10:22 PM

Dear Michael,

thank you for the info.
Herewith a picture of the spanner/panflask

Best regards

Matchlock · 23rd March 2009, 08:23 PM

Hi Cornelis,

Thank you for posting that fine combined spanner and priming flask; it is in optimum patinated surface condition and was made in Nuremberg in about 1550. Would you have expected it to be as early as that?

An almost identical sample is in my collection.

I just have started a separate thread on early wheel-lock spanners and their dating:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ed=1#post80827

and it would be great if you attach the images of your piece there as well.

All the best,

Michael

celtan · 13th April 2009, 02:42 PM

Hi Michael,

We are in the process of making thousands of BP cartridges for our next reenactment. It's a labor intensive process. I was wondering who actually made these during the 17-19th Cs. Did the soldier themselves use their time making the cartridges, or was this left to the invalides who stayed serving within the garrisons? Were they made by the armourers? Were there any mechanical contraptions available to speed up the process?

Best

Manuel

Matchlock · 13th April 2009, 03:05 PM

Hi Manuel,

I have often thought about these issues myself.

The mere fact, however, is: there seem to exist no records on them. I think that is was the soldiers themselves that made them.

What litlle we do know is that each gun was delivered together with its bullet mold. Bores used to vary within small tolerances those days. So he who had the mold would have to cast the balls. For paper cartridges, the lug was not cut off but used to fasten the cord.

Good luck!

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 13th April 2009, 06:02 PM

Hi Manuel,

I found this old photo of a Saxon cartridge box and one original late 16th century paper cartridge taken from it. Maybe it provides some inspiration for your project.

I also attach images of original late 16th century paper cartridges in my collection.

Michael

Pukka Bundook · 20th April 2009, 02:46 PM

Hello Michael,

Very good pictures as always!

Like Jim, I've not seen these before.
The ball tied into the cartridge by the neck probably accounts for the many "unfinished" balls encountered, with the sprue uncut. I would never have thought of tying them in in such a manner.

In the last photos, it is interesting to see the small pouch on the front, for holding tow, to clean the barrel.

Can you account for the "foot" on these cartridge boxes?

Is it to press down upon, whilst withdrawing a cartridge?

All very interesting Michael!!

Richard.

On looking again at these boxes;
Do you think some of the more elaborate ones could have been used with target arms, and the widened base would have allowed them to be used standing on a loading bench, rather than being worn on the person?
I see there are still loops for carrying straps, so they would not be limited to bench use only.

I also observe that some with the catch on the underside could not be used in this manner.
Thanks for the pictures!

R.

Matchlock · 21st April 2009, 09:22 PM

Hello, Richard,

Exquisite remarks and theses as alyways.

I just beg to differ about the probable intended use of the tow in the pouch of the better quality frog; it is tow indeed but I am afraid it would just have been scattered when trying to clean the barrel with it, and would have left considerable remains on the barrel walls. May I put forward as a thesis instead that it was rather meant to be put in the barrel after the powder and under caliber rolling (!) ball - with the whole load then rammed down with a few strokes of the rod, thus preventing the ball from rolling out of the muzzle when firing down a hillside, e.g.?

The same function has been generally attributed to the paper of a paper cartridge.

That brings us back to the patrons or cartridge boxes.

We do not know anything about their possible use with target guns but usually the bore of their drilled holes is considerably bigger than the usual target bores. Also, their main purpose was rapid loading which as far as I know was never considered to be preeminent in target shooting.

Their widened basis, in my opinion, just seems to have made it easier putting it on a table and inserting the cartridges. As the wood inside the drillings is quite rough we should assume that the actual cartridge bore was slighty below that of the box, otherwise the paper would have been torn open or the tied in ball ripped off. This would, to me, also exclude using pressure or force in withdrawing the cartriges.

As I have tried to show above, I just think that their general shape followed that of the former Gothic bolt quiver; please remember quivers originally had leather lids, too (almost all of them missing now). From ca. the 1520's, we have sources of illustration of harquebusiers's powder flasks which were also based on the basic triangular quiver shape.

I attach the only known source of illustration depicting a cartridge box and the way it was worn by its bearer. It is from an epitaph of ca. 1580.

Michael

22nd March 2009, 10:22 PM	#1
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,064	Dear Michael, thank you for the info. Herewith a picture of the spanner/panflask Best regards Attached Images

13th April 2009, 03:05 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Manuel, I have often thought about these issues myself. The mere fact, however, is: there seem to exist no records on them. I think that is was the soldiers themselves that made them. What litlle we do know is that each gun was delivered together with its bullet mold. Bores used to vary within small tolerances those days. So he who had the mold would have to cast the balls. For paper cartridges, the lug was not cut off but used to fasten the cord. Good luck! Best, Michael Attached Images

13th April 2009, 06:02 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Manuel, I found this old photo of a Saxon cartridge box and one original late 16th century paper cartridge taken from it. Maybe it provides some inspiration for your project. I also attach images of original late 16th century paper cartridges in my collection. Michael Attached Images

20th April 2009, 02:46 PM	#6
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Hello Michael, Very good pictures as always! Like Jim, I've not seen these before. The ball tied into the cartridge by the neck probably accounts for the many "unfinished" balls encountered, with the sprue uncut. I would never have thought of tying them in in such a manner. In the last photos, it is interesting to see the small pouch on the front, for holding tow, to clean the barrel. Can you account for the "foot" on these cartridge boxes? Is it to press down upon, whilst withdrawing a cartridge? All very interesting Michael!! Richard. On looking again at these boxes; Do you think some of the more elaborate ones could have been used with target arms, and the widened base would have allowed them to be used standing on a loading bench, rather than being worn on the person? I see there are still loops for carrying straps, so they would not be limited to bench use only. I also observe that some with the catch on the underside could not be used in this manner. Thanks for the pictures! R. Last edited by Pukka Bundook; 20th April 2009 at 02:59 PM.

21st April 2009, 09:22 PM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hello, Richard, Exquisite remarks and theses as alyways. I just beg to differ about the probable intended use of the tow in the pouch of the better quality frog; it is tow indeed but I am afraid it would just have been scattered when trying to clean the barrel with it, and would have left considerable remains on the barrel walls. May I put forward as a thesis instead that it was rather meant to be put in the barrel after the powder and under caliber rolling (!) ball - with the whole load then rammed down with a few strokes of the rod, thus preventing the ball from rolling out of the muzzle when firing down a hillside, e.g.? The same function has been generally attributed to the paper of a paper cartridge. That brings us back to the patrons or cartridge boxes. We do not know anything about their possible use with target guns but usually the bore of their drilled holes is considerably bigger than the usual target bores. Also, their main purpose was rapid loading which as far as I know was never considered to be preeminent in target shooting. Their widened basis, in my opinion, just seems to have made it easier putting it on a table and inserting the cartridges. As the wood inside the drillings is quite rough we should assume that the actual cartridge bore was slighty below that of the box, otherwise the paper would have been torn open or the tied in ball ripped off. This would, to me, also exclude using pressure or force in withdrawing the cartriges. As I have tried to show above, I just think that their general shape followed that of the former Gothic bolt quiver; please remember quivers originally had leather lids, too (almost all of them missing now). From ca. the 1520's, we have sources of illustration of harquebusiers's powder flasks which were also based on the basic triangular quiver shape. I attach the only known source of illustration depicting a cartridge box and the way it was worn by its bearer. It is from an epitaph of ca. 1580. Michael Attached Images

23rd March 2009, 08:23 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Cornelis, Thank you for posting that fine combined spanner and priming flask; it is in optimum patinated surface condition and was made in Nuremberg in about 1550. Would you have expected it to be as early as that? An almost identical sample is in my collection. I just have started a separate thread on early wheel-lock spanners and their dating: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ed=1#post80827 and it would be great if you attach the images of your piece there as well. All the best, Michael

13th April 2009, 02:42 PM	#3
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Hi Michael, We are in the process of making thousands of BP cartridges for our next reenactment. It's a labor intensive process. I was wondering who actually made these during the 17-19th Cs. Did the soldier themselves use their time making the cartridges, or was this left to the invalides who stayed serving within the garrisons? Were they made by the armourers? Were there any mechanical contraptions available to speed up the process? Best Manuel