Mid to Late 16th Century Patrons for Paper Cartridges

cornelistromp · 21st March 2009, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Of Nuremberg type, etched and gilt profusely.

Michael

Dear Michael,

absolutely beautiful display of those very rare cartridge boxes, I'm totally blown away by it.

I have one similar to the christies lot 171 you placed in this thread.
Do you know if it's made in Nurnberg, or is this difficult to tell?

kind Regards

Matchlock · 22nd March 2009, 06:01 PM

Hi Cornelis,

I am absolutely sure that your fine patron was made either in Ausburg or Nuremberg. The style of the bone inlay corresponds exactly to that on the wheel-lock puffers and guns characteristic of the late 1570's and 1580's. The iron parts were originally blued, with some of the bluing retained on the inside of the lid of your cartridge box.

It is true that some Saxon patrons were inlaid in the same style but they all usually open by shifting a button on the underside whereas your piece opens by pressing a button on the obverse side.

You're doing very well indeed!

All the best,
Michael

P.S. Could you post an image of that spanner seen in the background?

cornelistromp · 22nd March 2009, 09:22 PM

Dear Michael,

thank you for the info.
Herewith a picture of the spanner/panflask

Best regards

Matchlock · 23rd March 2009, 07:23 PM

Hi Cornelis,

Thank you for posting that fine combined spanner and priming flask; it is in optimum patinated surface condition and was made in Nuremberg in about 1550. Would you have expected it to be as early as that?

An almost identical sample is in my collection.

I just have started a separate thread on early wheel-lock spanners and their dating:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ed=1#post80827

and it would be great if you attach the images of your piece there as well.

All the best,

Michael

celtan · 13th April 2009, 01:42 PM

Hi Michael,

We are in the process of making thousands of BP cartridges for our next reenactment. It's a labor intensive process. I was wondering who actually made these during the 17-19th Cs. Did the soldier themselves use their time making the cartridges, or was this left to the invalides who stayed serving within the garrisons? Were they made by the armourers? Were there any mechanical contraptions available to speed up the process?

Best

Manuel

Matchlock · 13th April 2009, 02:05 PM

Hi Manuel,

I have often thought about these issues myself.

The mere fact, however, is: there seem to exist no records on them. I think that is was the soldiers themselves that made them.

What litlle we do know is that each gun was delivered together with its bullet mold. Bores used to vary within small tolerances those days. So he who had the mold would have to cast the balls. For paper cartridges, the lug was not cut off but used to fasten the cord.

Good luck!

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 13th April 2009, 05:02 PM

Hi Manuel,

I found this old photo of a Saxon cartridge box and one original late 16th century paper cartridge taken from it. Maybe it provides some inspiration for your project.

I also attach images of original late 16th century paper cartridges in my collection.

Michael

22nd March 2009, 09:22 PM	#3
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Dear Michael, thank you for the info. Herewith a picture of the spanner/panflask Best regards Attached Images

13th April 2009, 02:05 PM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Manuel, I have often thought about these issues myself. The mere fact, however, is: there seem to exist no records on them. I think that is was the soldiers themselves that made them. What litlle we do know is that each gun was delivered together with its bullet mold. Bores used to vary within small tolerances those days. So he who had the mold would have to cast the balls. For paper cartridges, the lug was not cut off but used to fasten the cord. Good luck! Best, Michael Attached Images

13th April 2009, 05:02 PM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Manuel, I found this old photo of a Saxon cartridge box and one original late 16th century paper cartridge taken from it. Maybe it provides some inspiration for your project. I also attach images of original late 16th century paper cartridges in my collection. Michael Attached Images

22nd March 2009, 06:01 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Cornelis, I am absolutely sure that your fine patron was made either in Ausburg or Nuremberg. The style of the bone inlay corresponds exactly to that on the wheel-lock puffers and guns characteristic of the late 1570's and 1580's. The iron parts were originally blued, with some of the bluing retained on the inside of the lid of your cartridge box. It is true that some Saxon patrons were inlaid in the same style but they all usually open by shifting a button on the underside whereas your piece opens by pressing a button on the obverse side. You're doing very well indeed! All the best, Michael P.S. Could you post an image of that spanner seen in the background?

23rd March 2009, 07:23 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Cornelis, Thank you for posting that fine combined spanner and priming flask; it is in optimum patinated surface condition and was made in Nuremberg in about 1550. Would you have expected it to be as early as that? An almost identical sample is in my collection. I just have started a separate thread on early wheel-lock spanners and their dating: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ed=1#post80827 and it would be great if you attach the images of your piece there as well. All the best, Michael

13th April 2009, 01:42 PM	#5
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Hi Michael, We are in the process of making thousands of BP cartridges for our next reenactment. It's a labor intensive process. I was wondering who actually made these during the 17-19th Cs. Did the soldier themselves use their time making the cartridges, or was this left to the invalides who stayed serving within the garrisons? Were they made by the armourers? Were there any mechanical contraptions available to speed up the process? Best Manuel