Random chosen pictures of the Oriental beauties

[wolviex]

Sorry for the size of the pictures and your time you spend on waiting until pictures will upload.

Tom: there's a devil's head in the animal's mouth

[tom hyle]

Interesting; thanks.

[RSWORD]

Michel,

Thank you so much for posting all those beauties. You chose a great variety of items with many unique features. Just a couple to comment on:

1) The first helmet pictured is fantastic. What great workmanship in this parade helmet and illustrates the endless variety one can find from these regions of the world
2) The S Indian enamaled sword is great! The enameling is typical of Lucknow workmanship and the hilt has a typical South Indian flare.
3) The lovely dagger with the gold or gold gilt mounts has a most interesting "lizard" attached. I am wondering what this lizard represents. A most unusual motif for what I am guessing is an Indo-Persian or Indo-Arab knife.
4) I really like the Caucasian saber. The "shamshir" hilted examples are not seen as often and the niello work is lovely. The blade on that one is great!

All the others are fantastic examples and the extra detail in the pictures really gives one a better "feel" than what you find in most pictures in books because they just do not have the space to allow for many close up pictures so one can study all the details.

Thank you for making my morning!

[wolviex]

You're welcome Rick

Everybody: please, feel free to comment, I would like to know more your opinions, while my knowledge about Orient is still not satisying.

Regards

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Wow Wolviex, my dear brother in arms you are a lucky man indeed , I almost pooped in my pants at the sight of these pics , pardon my French !
Royal quality pieces and my hat is off to you for your photographic quality standards ! I lost my sense of speech until further notice ...

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Michel,
Thank you for posting these fantastic items! Yes, these photos are very much of Jens' superb quality, I couldn't agree more.

I can offer some observations on some of the items.
1. the dagger seems to correspond with 19th c. Ottoman examples in the style of dress, but is very close to the Indian jambia daggers as well. The 'lizard' most likely represents the salamander, which has been held very important in early symbolism and allegories, especially alchemical. Its association with fire may have similar ties to the phoenix, which also appears on oriental weapons in allegorical symbolism.
2. The niello Persian style hilt is indeed Caucasian from Georgia, while the blade is most likely a Chechen work.These straight sabres resemble those used by Khevsur tribal warriors from the high mountain regions of Georgia, however this example's quality far exceeds those usually found from those enclaves. These high quality Georgian sabres were often presentation pieces from the 19th century used as diplomatic gifts by Georgian princes.
3. The yataghan is a beautiful example, probably late 18th to the early years of the 19th. There is considerable debate about examples with these studded hilts, and they seem to be typically Balkan as this feature seems to correspond with similar studded motif on some Bosnian knives and many of the resources list these as Balkan. This certainly does not rule out Turkish provenance though, as these regions were all Ottoman so it is difficult to say precisely. The coral decor has significance which needs more research, both these and turquoise were important in the motif on many weapons from these regions, and most likely carried talismanic meaning in degree.
4. The enameled sabre is most interesting as it is indeed of S.Indian form with the stylized creatures probably being the makara of Hindu mythology which has associations with the god Varuna, Lord of the Deep. In his fantastic new book "Hindu Arms & Ritual" , Dr. Robert Elgood has noted also a similar creature termed 'yali' which is a beneficient protective demon often placed on weapons (p.100). It is also noted that the turned down quillons are of Deccani influence in the example he shows on the page cited.
What is most interesting is that the enamelled motif is as noted, of Lucknow style, however Lucknow is actually in the northern regions of India in Oudh, SE of the Punjab. On p.156 Dr. Elgood references a clearly south Indian katar from Tanjore of the 17th c. which along with a number of others were enamelled sometime in the late 18th to early 19th c. (a drawing of one of these appears in Pant). Possibly this sabre may have been included along with those during this time? More research !!

Hopefully this observations will be helpful in directing further research and discussion as these are wonderful examples and we can learn a lot from them. Thanks again Michel!!! Nicely done

All the best,
Jim

[wolviex]

Friends!

Thank you for your opionions so far, and especially about few words of explanation. Every factual information is at a premium for me. So please, I want more

Jens: although you didn't show yourself here I'm curious your opinions as well, especially as the Indian weapons lover and expert. I hope you're not angry I've used your Name here in the figurative sense - in my opinion it only means "the best" and Jim has confirmed it. Your great close-up pictures were the inspiration for some of my pics.

And it seems to me I owe you few words of explanation for this objects:

1. Indian Helmet (Sind?) is the part of whole armour... well, almost whole, because there is only a jacket while trousers are lost. Everybody who posses "Stara bron w Polskich Zbiorach" by Z. Zygulski - go to p. 226-227, item no. 233;

2. Enamelled sabre: all the fittings are on their proper place - one loose shown on the second picture is just cut off the picture . Please take a look at a leather on sheath with beautiful embossed pattern.

3. Arm-guard - again Z. Zygulski "Stara bron.." p. 210, no. 219;

4. Beautiful parade axe, Persian, with the miniature of Ali and his sons: Hassan and Husein. Ali has the Zulfikar sabre (?) ("Stara bron..." p. 239, no. 246)

5. Caucasian sabre - what I like most, is the very nice silver and gold incrustation (made only on one side) (again "Stara bron..." p. 244, no. 252c)

6. Turkish sabre - phenomenal (IMO) pattern visible on close-up picture: engraved in steel floral design with gilded, a little coarse background. Gold incrustation on the other side is very nice too.

7. Yatagan was published probably in "War and Peace" catalogue ("Wojna i Pokoj" in Polish), but I don't have this book at the hand right now.

8. On this picture we can see: powder-horn, small box probably for an oil or wax, and the powder-measure - all Persian, probably.

Regards!

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Pictures 1 & 2 : Chainmal helmet with face mask - NorthWestern Indian, probably Rajput or Sind (if the bird topping the helmet is original it is the Kutch Bhuj area (today`s Pakistan, which I am more and more certain the longer I examine the copper/brass craftsmanship so much in Lahore style) made in Mughal fashion. The mask was used by full clad armored cavalrymen , specialy mounted escorts, paiges and retainers. The helmets inspired by the burkha ( Islamic female veil) are named purdah or purdha. We all know how hard is to accuratelly date Indo-Persian archeological finds due to their extensively long mentained and unchanged style which leaves us at the mercy of apreciating age based on general health and condition of the piece itself which is almost an unsafe thing to base a verdict upon but I take my chance and say 19th century, even though next person that has a solid argument I might not know can make me look like a complete fool in regards to age , however as far as origins and the rest I stand firmly by my affirmations ...


After comming back from work I would be happy to comment on the rest of your stuff ...

[wolviex]

Radu: I think you're near the truth. In my opinion this helmet was made around 19th century, Zygulski dated it on 18th/19th century.

One remark. When I look on the masks from armours like this one (in other museums like Stibbert in Firenze for example) they all seems to me grotesque, while this one is more solemn. Am I wright or it's just my imagination? Any thoughts?

[Rivkin]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

2. The niello Persian style hilt is indeed Caucasian from Georgia, while the blade is most likely a Chechen work.These straight sabres resemble those used by Khevsur tribal warriors from the high mountain regions of Georgia, however this example's quality far exceeds those usually found from those enclaves. These high quality Georgian sabres were often presentation pieces from the 19th century used as diplomatic gifts by Georgian princes.

1. I would like to express my deepest appreciation for the posting of these pictures.

2. If I may, the question to Jim - why do you think it's chechen ?

Sincerely yours,

K.Rivkin

[Radu Transylvanicus]

The helmet and the armguards are not part of the same armor, they were made centuries and even more miles apart, Pane Wolviexowsky ! Its like putting Colonel Wolodjowsky to fight the Kaiser boys kind of deal ...