unknown naski inscripted malchus blade?

cornelistromp · 21st March 2009, 02:39 PM

thank you all for the expert-comments,I noticed with pleasure that the level of knowledge in arms and armour is very high.
It is very convenient that I can consult this forum whenever Iam stuck on a case which more then once happens.

Re: origin
it is obvious that this type of blade has an oriental origin however Indonesian origin is not very likely because the weapons of this archipel don't have western types of ricasso like this blade has.
At the moment a friend of me is working on the translation and dating of the Naskhi script (Naskhi or close relative). Hope that the outcome will clearify more/all.

Re:dating
personally I think it can be older then 17thC or 18thC
- there was a "flint hard" layer of Goethite (feOoh) covering the blade.
This (evidence) has been recenlty removed for 90%.
such a layer is often found on medieval waterfinds. this proces of rust interacting with the chemical constituents of the surrounding mud ,is not possible in 200 or 300 years.
- the Naskhi script evolved from 1100ad in innumerable varieties and styles.
the first indication is that this style can be dated before 1600 but is under investigation at the moment. I hope the script will give more outcome.

Re: Malchus sword classification
Heribert Seitz Author of Blankwaffen
(one of the most important publications about the developements of types
of arms in Europe till 1600.) has classified "single edged swords" from the group MALCHUS-FALCHION-STORTA into two types in 1964;

MALCHUS type1 oriental origin (fa the Thorpe Falchion, Oakeshott 1960)

MALCHUS type2 north-west european Origin.(fa Conyers falchion)

(H.Seitz Blankwaffen p187-194. 1965)

Jim McDougall · 21st March 2009, 03:37 PM

Thank you so much for revealing all of this extremely helpful data Cornelistromp! It would appear that you are quite knowledgable as well. We often have 'translation' queries on the Ethnographic Forum, which is our main forum, and which is the forum I had earlier suggested. Obviously, here on the European Forum, the few such queries wouldn't usually include Arabic dialects (with the exception probably of the Alexandria swords

).

It is times like these when I realize how important it is to have diverse and comprehensive resources in an arms library! The Seitz reference is outstanding as I recall, but presently do not have access to it, so I am grateful for the categorization you refer to using the term 'malchus'. I am of course familiar with the Conyers and Thorpe falchion references, which indeed present entirely different potential for this blades identification.

I feel as though I've been skipping up and down the garden path, wondering what was rustling in the bushes, but now that I can see it, it is less of a puzzle.....but obviously not that much less! At least I know better where to look though.

Excellent point on the heavy ricasso, and that remains a sound observation. Since you have referenced Goethite factor, it begs the question...was this an archaeological find, and if so, obviously where in location. If it was in a location situated in regions associated with any of the crusades, than the placement here with the European Forum seems well warranted, and the focus on this blade becomes increasingly intriguing.

I'll have to learn more on the Nashki script, which I have heard of, but know little about and maybe I can implore some of our linguists to take a look at this. Perhaps they might not only translate, but add more on the use of this type script.

I also am determined to learn more on the use of the term 'malchus' as used by Seitz in his classification of falchions. It seems that it is a term not especially widely used as it does not readily appear in most references, but really does have my curiosity going!

I am more than delighted that this blade seems to be far more than my original assessment, and regret not having withheld same until I had more thoroughly reviewed the illustrations. Had I realized the complexity implied, I would have definitely looked further into available resources for information.

Thank you much for sharing this fascinating blade here, and giving us the opportunity not only to discuss, but learn from this interesting piece.

All the very best,
Jim

Norman McCormick · 21st March 2009, 04:10 PM

Hi,
I thought the 'Thorpe Falchion' was an Eastern European influenced blade rather than what I understand as 'oriental', perhaps I'm grabbing the wrong end of the stick. The blade profile at the tip is confusing but I still don't see it as a 'classic' Falchion type although they were many and varied also it could have been altered over the years by corrosion loss and/or reshaping. The part where blade and tang meet appear as cast rather than hammered but again this could be corrosion or a 'welded' tang. Whatever it is it is intriguing and I look forward to further discussion. An interesting blade Cornelis.
My Regards,
Norman.

Gavin Nugent · 22nd March 2009, 03:11 AM

Hi guys,

Cornelis could you please provide a brighter image of the business end of the blade, I have a couple of thoughts I'd like to throw around after more images could be provided.

thanks

Gav

G. McCormack · 22nd March 2009, 05:57 AM

Somebody correct me here, because to me this plainly looks like a mandau or other parang blade, 19th century. Am I crazy?

cornelistromp · 22nd March 2009, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G. McCormack

Somebody correct me here, because to me this plainly looks like a mandau or other parang blade, 19th century. Am I crazy?

Dear sir,

I will place some better pictures and then you all can shoot at it :-)

Re: Mandau
If you refering to the swords from Borneo Mandau(langgi tinggan,pasir) , baieng, duku, malab, malat and Parang Ilang.
the blades look similar but they all have one main (different) characteristic: one side is ball shaped and the other side hollow shaped. also they don't have ricasso's of this type.

maybe I follow the total wrong track so Im looking forward to your replies/evidence posted, on the the pictures.

best regards from Holland

Norman McCormick · 23rd March 2009, 06:42 PM

Hi Cornelis,
Is there any evidence of how the tang was affixed to a hilt e.g. peened, 'glued' etc.
My Regards,
Norman.

21st March 2009, 04:10 PM	#3
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,635	Hi, I thought the 'Thorpe Falchion' was an Eastern European influenced blade rather than what I understand as 'oriental', perhaps I'm grabbing the wrong end of the stick. The blade profile at the tip is confusing but I still don't see it as a 'classic' Falchion type although they were many and varied also it could have been altered over the years by corrosion loss and/or reshaping. The part where blade and tang meet appear as cast rather than hammered but again this could be corrosion or a 'welded' tang. Whatever it is it is intriguing and I look forward to further discussion. An interesting blade Cornelis. My Regards, Norman. Last edited by Norman McCormick; 21st March 2009 at 04:20 PM.

22nd March 2009, 03:11 AM	#4
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Another image please Hi guys, Cornelis could you please provide a brighter image of the business end of the blade, I have a couple of thoughts I'd like to throw around after more images could be provided. thanks Gav

21st March 2009, 02:39 PM	#1
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	thank you all for the expert-comments,I noticed with pleasure that the level of knowledge in arms and armour is very high. It is very convenient that I can consult this forum whenever Iam stuck on a case which more then once happens. Re: origin it is obvious that this type of blade has an oriental origin however Indonesian origin is not very likely because the weapons of this archipel don't have western types of ricasso like this blade has. At the moment a friend of me is working on the translation and dating of the Naskhi script (Naskhi or close relative). Hope that the outcome will clearify more/all. Re:dating personally I think it can be older then 17thC or 18thC - there was a "flint hard" layer of Goethite (feOoh) covering the blade. This (evidence) has been recenlty removed for 90%. such a layer is often found on medieval waterfinds. this proces of rust interacting with the chemical constituents of the surrounding mud ,is not possible in 200 or 300 years. - the Naskhi script evolved from 1100ad in innumerable varieties and styles. the first indication is that this style can be dated before 1600 but is under investigation at the moment. I hope the script will give more outcome. Re: Malchus sword classification Heribert Seitz Author of Blankwaffen (one of the most important publications about the developements of types of arms in Europe till 1600.) has classified "single edged swords" from the group MALCHUS-FALCHION-STORTA into two types in 1964; MALCHUS type1 oriental origin (fa the Thorpe Falchion, Oakeshott 1960) MALCHUS type2 north-west european Origin.(fa Conyers falchion) (H.Seitz Blankwaffen p187-194. 1965)

21st March 2009, 03:37 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,474	Thank you so much for revealing all of this extremely helpful data Cornelistromp! It would appear that you are quite knowledgable as well. We often have 'translation' queries on the Ethnographic Forum, which is our main forum, and which is the forum I had earlier suggested. Obviously, here on the European Forum, the few such queries wouldn't usually include Arabic dialects (with the exception probably of the Alexandria swords ). It is times like these when I realize how important it is to have diverse and comprehensive resources in an arms library! The Seitz reference is outstanding as I recall, but presently do not have access to it, so I am grateful for the categorization you refer to using the term 'malchus'. I am of course familiar with the Conyers and Thorpe falchion references, which indeed present entirely different potential for this blades identification. I feel as though I've been skipping up and down the garden path, wondering what was rustling in the bushes, but now that I can see it, it is less of a puzzle.....but obviously not that much less! At least I know better where to look though. Excellent point on the heavy ricasso, and that remains a sound observation. Since you have referenced Goethite factor, it begs the question...was this an archaeological find, and if so, obviously where in location. If it was in a location situated in regions associated with any of the crusades, than the placement here with the European Forum seems well warranted, and the focus on this blade becomes increasingly intriguing. I'll have to learn more on the Nashki script, which I have heard of, but know little about and maybe I can implore some of our linguists to take a look at this. Perhaps they might not only translate, but add more on the use of this type script. I also am determined to learn more on the use of the term 'malchus' as used by Seitz in his classification of falchions. It seems that it is a term not especially widely used as it does not readily appear in most references, but really does have my curiosity going! I am more than delighted that this blade seems to be far more than my original assessment, and regret not having withheld same until I had more thoroughly reviewed the illustrations. Had I realized the complexity implied, I would have definitely looked further into available resources for information. Thank you much for sharing this fascinating blade here, and giving us the opportunity not only to discuss, but learn from this interesting piece. All the very best, Jim

22nd March 2009, 05:57 AM	#5
G. McCormack Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 131	Somebody correct me here, because to me this plainly looks like a mandau or other parang blade, 19th century. Am I crazy?

23rd March 2009, 06:42 PM	#7
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,635	Hi Cornelis, Is there any evidence of how the tang was affixed to a hilt e.g. peened, 'glued' etc. My Regards, Norman.