unknown naski inscripted malchus blade?

Jim McDougall · 19th March 2009, 10:28 PM

Hello Cornelistromp,
First of all I'd like to welcome you here, and thank you for your great response on the Dutch knife!

The blade here appears to be an Arab blade, probably of 18th-19th century. Excellent note by Norman on the 'magic squares', which were talismanic groupings in numbers or letters found on Islamic swords usually at or near the forte of the blade.
There seems to be distinct variation in the numerology, as well as the calligraphy, of which nasta'liq is one. This script is a Persian form, which would have been highly favored in Arabia. I am no linquist nor particularly knowledgable on these weapons, but I do know these talismanic squares are typically termed 'Bedouh'. The meaning of the term is inclear, but naturally the inclination toward the Bedouin tribes of Arabia is tempting.

The Ottomans occuped Arabia and during these times, the nasta'liq used in writing Ottoman Turkish was termed 'Talik'. There was also Diwani script developed for writing Ottoman Turkish during about 16-17th c.

I think this should be posted on the Ethnographic Forum, where the true experts on these swords reside, and I'm not sure how this is transferred over, but I wanted to let you know where it is being moved for better response.

Fascinating blade though!!!

All best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 21st March 2009, 03:19 AM

After discovering this blade posted on another forum, I realized that I did not scroll far enough to the left, revealing the distinctly profiled tip on this blade.
Now having the 'big picture' it would appear that this is not the double fullered sabre blade I had anticipated, and likely does have possible Indonesian or SE Asian origins, but probably of the period I mentioned.

It should be noted that much of Indonesian regions are predominantly Muslim, with profound history that includes the Arab trade routes. The use of these type blade markings are found accordingly, and the 'magic square' comments apply as well.

I find the 'malchus' description most curious, and can only imagine it must be used in the Biblical parlance, which again, Norman has most astutely noted, and describes the event described in the Gospels where a sword is used in severing the ear of an individual named Malchus. Although I am not aware of any sword type called by this name, I am sure it has been used in literary metaphor.

Interesting note on Alexandria as well, as there were a number of European swords captured in the crusades (clearly much before this blade) and taken as trophies to the arsenal at Alexandria. A number of these were marked in Arabic calligraphy on the blades noting them as such, and an article describing them was written in Israel in 1962 (I am not near my notes and cannot recall offhand the cite), but I do not think the squares were used. Again, would have to review the notes.
Well placed perspective though ,noting those characteristics!

Best regards,
Jim

P.S. Beautifully done Norman!!!

imagine my chagrin!, excellent assessments by you on all counts. I didnt realize that much of my screen was cut off.....after all ...my PC is a Fisher-Price!!!

cornelistromp · 21st March 2009, 02:39 PM

thank you all for the expert-comments,I noticed with pleasure that the level of knowledge in arms and armour is very high.
It is very convenient that I can consult this forum whenever Iam stuck on a case which more then once happens.

Re: origin
it is obvious that this type of blade has an oriental origin however Indonesian origin is not very likely because the weapons of this archipel don't have western types of ricasso like this blade has.
At the moment a friend of me is working on the translation and dating of the Naskhi script (Naskhi or close relative). Hope that the outcome will clearify more/all.

Re:dating
personally I think it can be older then 17thC or 18thC
- there was a "flint hard" layer of Goethite (feOoh) covering the blade.
This (evidence) has been recenlty removed for 90%.
such a layer is often found on medieval waterfinds. this proces of rust interacting with the chemical constituents of the surrounding mud ,is not possible in 200 or 300 years.
- the Naskhi script evolved from 1100ad in innumerable varieties and styles.
the first indication is that this style can be dated before 1600 but is under investigation at the moment. I hope the script will give more outcome.

Re: Malchus sword classification
Heribert Seitz Author of Blankwaffen
(one of the most important publications about the developements of types
of arms in Europe till 1600.) has classified "single edged swords" from the group MALCHUS-FALCHION-STORTA into two types in 1964;

MALCHUS type1 oriental origin (fa the Thorpe Falchion, Oakeshott 1960)

MALCHUS type2 north-west european Origin.(fa Conyers falchion)

(H.Seitz Blankwaffen p187-194. 1965)

Jim McDougall · 21st March 2009, 03:37 PM

Thank you so much for revealing all of this extremely helpful data Cornelistromp! It would appear that you are quite knowledgable as well. We often have 'translation' queries on the Ethnographic Forum, which is our main forum, and which is the forum I had earlier suggested. Obviously, here on the European Forum, the few such queries wouldn't usually include Arabic dialects (with the exception probably of the Alexandria swords

).

It is times like these when I realize how important it is to have diverse and comprehensive resources in an arms library! The Seitz reference is outstanding as I recall, but presently do not have access to it, so I am grateful for the categorization you refer to using the term 'malchus'. I am of course familiar with the Conyers and Thorpe falchion references, which indeed present entirely different potential for this blades identification.

I feel as though I've been skipping up and down the garden path, wondering what was rustling in the bushes, but now that I can see it, it is less of a puzzle.....but obviously not that much less! At least I know better where to look though.

Excellent point on the heavy ricasso, and that remains a sound observation. Since you have referenced Goethite factor, it begs the question...was this an archaeological find, and if so, obviously where in location. If it was in a location situated in regions associated with any of the crusades, than the placement here with the European Forum seems well warranted, and the focus on this blade becomes increasingly intriguing.

I'll have to learn more on the Nashki script, which I have heard of, but know little about and maybe I can implore some of our linguists to take a look at this. Perhaps they might not only translate, but add more on the use of this type script.

I also am determined to learn more on the use of the term 'malchus' as used by Seitz in his classification of falchions. It seems that it is a term not especially widely used as it does not readily appear in most references, but really does have my curiosity going!

I am more than delighted that this blade seems to be far more than my original assessment, and regret not having withheld same until I had more thoroughly reviewed the illustrations. Had I realized the complexity implied, I would have definitely looked further into available resources for information.

Thank you much for sharing this fascinating blade here, and giving us the opportunity not only to discuss, but learn from this interesting piece.

All the very best,
Jim

Norman McCormick · 21st March 2009, 04:10 PM

Hi,
I thought the 'Thorpe Falchion' was an Eastern European influenced blade rather than what I understand as 'oriental', perhaps I'm grabbing the wrong end of the stick. The blade profile at the tip is confusing but I still don't see it as a 'classic' Falchion type although they were many and varied also it could have been altered over the years by corrosion loss and/or reshaping. The part where blade and tang meet appear as cast rather than hammered but again this could be corrosion or a 'welded' tang. Whatever it is it is intriguing and I look forward to further discussion. An interesting blade Cornelis.
My Regards,
Norman.

Gavin Nugent · 22nd March 2009, 03:11 AM

Hi guys,

Cornelis could you please provide a brighter image of the business end of the blade, I have a couple of thoughts I'd like to throw around after more images could be provided.

thanks

Gav

G. McCormack · 22nd March 2009, 05:57 AM

Somebody correct me here, because to me this plainly looks like a mandau or other parang blade, 19th century. Am I crazy?

21st March 2009, 04:10 PM	#5
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,618	Hi, I thought the 'Thorpe Falchion' was an Eastern European influenced blade rather than what I understand as 'oriental', perhaps I'm grabbing the wrong end of the stick. The blade profile at the tip is confusing but I still don't see it as a 'classic' Falchion type although they were many and varied also it could have been altered over the years by corrosion loss and/or reshaping. The part where blade and tang meet appear as cast rather than hammered but again this could be corrosion or a 'welded' tang. Whatever it is it is intriguing and I look forward to further discussion. An interesting blade Cornelis. My Regards, Norman. Last edited by Norman McCormick; 21st March 2009 at 04:20 PM.

22nd March 2009, 03:11 AM	#6
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Another image please Hi guys, Cornelis could you please provide a brighter image of the business end of the blade, I have a couple of thoughts I'd like to throw around after more images could be provided. thanks Gav

19th March 2009, 10:28 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Hello Cornelistromp, First of all I'd like to welcome you here, and thank you for your great response on the Dutch knife! The blade here appears to be an Arab blade, probably of 18th-19th century. Excellent note by Norman on the 'magic squares', which were talismanic groupings in numbers or letters found on Islamic swords usually at or near the forte of the blade. There seems to be distinct variation in the numerology, as well as the calligraphy, of which nasta'liq is one. This script is a Persian form, which would have been highly favored in Arabia. I am no linquist nor particularly knowledgable on these weapons, but I do know these talismanic squares are typically termed 'Bedouh'. The meaning of the term is inclear, but naturally the inclination toward the Bedouin tribes of Arabia is tempting. The Ottomans occuped Arabia and during these times, the nasta'liq used in writing Ottoman Turkish was termed 'Talik'. There was also Diwani script developed for writing Ottoman Turkish during about 16-17th c. I think this should be posted on the Ethnographic Forum, where the true experts on these swords reside, and I'm not sure how this is transferred over, but I wanted to let you know where it is being moved for better response. Fascinating blade though!!! All best regards, Jim

21st March 2009, 03:19 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	After discovering this blade posted on another forum, I realized that I did not scroll far enough to the left, revealing the distinctly profiled tip on this blade. Now having the 'big picture' it would appear that this is not the double fullered sabre blade I had anticipated, and likely does have possible Indonesian or SE Asian origins, but probably of the period I mentioned. It should be noted that much of Indonesian regions are predominantly Muslim, with profound history that includes the Arab trade routes. The use of these type blade markings are found accordingly, and the 'magic square' comments apply as well. I find the 'malchus' description most curious, and can only imagine it must be used in the Biblical parlance, which again, Norman has most astutely noted, and describes the event described in the Gospels where a sword is used in severing the ear of an individual named Malchus. Although I am not aware of any sword type called by this name, I am sure it has been used in literary metaphor. Interesting note on Alexandria as well, as there were a number of European swords captured in the crusades (clearly much before this blade) and taken as trophies to the arsenal at Alexandria. A number of these were marked in Arabic calligraphy on the blades noting them as such, and an article describing them was written in Israel in 1962 (I am not near my notes and cannot recall offhand the cite), but I do not think the squares were used. Again, would have to review the notes. Well placed perspective though ,noting those characteristics! Best regards, Jim P.S. Beautifully done Norman!!! imagine my chagrin!, excellent assessments by you on all counts. I didnt realize that much of my screen was cut off.....after all ...my PC is a Fisher-Price!!!

21st March 2009, 02:39 PM	#3
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	thank you all for the expert-comments,I noticed with pleasure that the level of knowledge in arms and armour is very high. It is very convenient that I can consult this forum whenever Iam stuck on a case which more then once happens. Re: origin it is obvious that this type of blade has an oriental origin however Indonesian origin is not very likely because the weapons of this archipel don't have western types of ricasso like this blade has. At the moment a friend of me is working on the translation and dating of the Naskhi script (Naskhi or close relative). Hope that the outcome will clearify more/all. Re:dating personally I think it can be older then 17thC or 18thC - there was a "flint hard" layer of Goethite (feOoh) covering the blade. This (evidence) has been recenlty removed for 90%. such a layer is often found on medieval waterfinds. this proces of rust interacting with the chemical constituents of the surrounding mud ,is not possible in 200 or 300 years. - the Naskhi script evolved from 1100ad in innumerable varieties and styles. the first indication is that this style can be dated before 1600 but is under investigation at the moment. I hope the script will give more outcome. Re: Malchus sword classification Heribert Seitz Author of Blankwaffen (one of the most important publications about the developements of types of arms in Europe till 1600.) has classified "single edged swords" from the group MALCHUS-FALCHION-STORTA into two types in 1964; MALCHUS type1 oriental origin (fa the Thorpe Falchion, Oakeshott 1960) MALCHUS type2 north-west european Origin.(fa Conyers falchion) (H.Seitz Blankwaffen p187-194. 1965)

21st March 2009, 03:37 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Thank you so much for revealing all of this extremely helpful data Cornelistromp! It would appear that you are quite knowledgable as well. We often have 'translation' queries on the Ethnographic Forum, which is our main forum, and which is the forum I had earlier suggested. Obviously, here on the European Forum, the few such queries wouldn't usually include Arabic dialects (with the exception probably of the Alexandria swords ). It is times like these when I realize how important it is to have diverse and comprehensive resources in an arms library! The Seitz reference is outstanding as I recall, but presently do not have access to it, so I am grateful for the categorization you refer to using the term 'malchus'. I am of course familiar with the Conyers and Thorpe falchion references, which indeed present entirely different potential for this blades identification. I feel as though I've been skipping up and down the garden path, wondering what was rustling in the bushes, but now that I can see it, it is less of a puzzle.....but obviously not that much less! At least I know better where to look though. Excellent point on the heavy ricasso, and that remains a sound observation. Since you have referenced Goethite factor, it begs the question...was this an archaeological find, and if so, obviously where in location. If it was in a location situated in regions associated with any of the crusades, than the placement here with the European Forum seems well warranted, and the focus on this blade becomes increasingly intriguing. I'll have to learn more on the Nashki script, which I have heard of, but know little about and maybe I can implore some of our linguists to take a look at this. Perhaps they might not only translate, but add more on the use of this type script. I also am determined to learn more on the use of the term 'malchus' as used by Seitz in his classification of falchions. It seems that it is a term not especially widely used as it does not readily appear in most references, but really does have my curiosity going! I am more than delighted that this blade seems to be far more than my original assessment, and regret not having withheld same until I had more thoroughly reviewed the illustrations. Had I realized the complexity implied, I would have definitely looked further into available resources for information. Thank you much for sharing this fascinating blade here, and giving us the opportunity not only to discuss, but learn from this interesting piece. All the very best, Jim

22nd March 2009, 05:57 AM	#7
G. McCormack Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 131	Somebody correct me here, because to me this plainly looks like a mandau or other parang blade, 19th century. Am I crazy?