Bolo with wide blade and t-grip for identification

tom hyle · 23rd April 2005, 08:32 PM

not sure; Carter & I usually agree about machete, but use very different language; he tends to talk about the action of the hand and wrist that produce the proper/true machete cut, while I tend to talk about its result; the way it moves the cutting tip through the.....workpiece? victim? Also, I don't remember if he said anything about the African connection that seems fairly clear to me. It's been a while; I'll re-read.....dang homework

Rick; doesn't mace come in under that same etymology somewhere? To chew up or to crush.....that's what I was thinking, anyway.

tom hyle · 24th April 2005, 03:10 AM

Meshes fairly well, I think. I had forgotten Carters' creditting of American Indian stick use for machete origins. A very good spice to add to the mix

He does also mention the more usually heard lineage through the "sailors' cutlass" and other european hangers, including dual use types like langenmesser (commonly called grossmesser; props to Therion for diseminating the more correct form, or at least he says so, and he's probably right, but I don't know how the argument goes.....cutlace, cuttoe, there was a Spanish version, too; a dual-use soldiers' and peasants' landclearing sword with a curved blade and wide tip, but I forget the name; I think Museum Rep.s once had a copy for sale). It is worth noting that machetes are said to be commonly called "cutlass" in the Caribean region.
The resemblance to butchering knives is A/intentional, as there has always been a somewhat legalistic claim that machete (as with many large European peasant knives) is a knife, rather than a sword; ie nonviolent ( so strong and persistent is this custom that N American men still regularly tell me "That's not a sword; that's a machete!" Yeah, and that's not a mammal, it's a dog.....the women [of course?] more usually know that they don't know..... ), and B/ only pertains to the overall view of the sword, and the handle design, but certainly the cross-section is different in that machete, even when it does have a slight full height bevel, has a thick, heavy, relatively obtusely angled edge for strength against battering, compared to a butchering knife's thin, fine, acute edge for slashing/slicing.
Carter also mentions the way the term seems to be much more broadly applied and to heavier implements in Spain than in at least N America.
I don't think he's right about machete costeno of the Acapulco region being a post wwII phenomenon. This is the "yelman" machete; also known, I am told, as "cuchilla del costa" or (West) coast knife. We've all seen the engraved ones, I guess, with the saddle scabbards and the eagle pommels, that are so very similar to US machetes of the early 20th, and though production of the horn handled distal tapered, full height bevel machete seems to have gone on longer in Mexico than US, many of them seem quite old. I've an old farmery one, with a different (zoomorphic?) type pommel. The two native ones (I've another with a possibly reshaped Robert Mole blade) that I have both have typical hotstruck Spanish colonial maker's marks; name (personal? family? town?) or initials, as seen on Luzon bolos as well, while the engraving is a later cold process, and this seems typical of Mexican and Spanish colonial work in general? I had a nice little "bowie" though, where there was only engraving "Vivan los Herdez" Herdez is a family name; not sure maker or owner......otherwise it's more often sometimes the other way; hotstruck mark but no engraving, or else both.
We're pretty well on the same page it seems as to the role played by the rise of cheap modern spring tempered carbon steel in the rise of this thin, light sword, which lacks stiffness when softer, though one does encounter softer ones, as well.

tom hyle · 24th April 2005, 07:52 AM

Leyte has an official website with a map. Abuyog is on the East coast. There is a town called Kananga in the interior, for whatever that might mean.

nosmo king · 24th April 2005, 05:36 PM

Hello everyone,I was noticing the "mystery" native's earrings.They are called batlings and they are made of hornbill.They are only worn by Ilongots that have taken heads.Here is a pic of an Ilongot with a segmented set of batlings.Notice his facial features!!!
Also,one of the Igorot tribes are the Kankana-ey this could be what they meant on that photo.
Here's an interesting link:http://www.geocities.com/sagada_igor...ic_groups.html

Ian · 24th April 2005, 07:13 PM

Nosmo:

I've blown up that picture of the guy with the bandana a few times and I thought that the two pieces of material coming down each side of his head were the two ends of the bandana tied around his forehead. Really hard to make out much detail in our mystery man photo.

Ian.

nosmo king · 24th April 2005, 09:00 PM

Ian: the Ilongot have really long hair and pull it around the front of their ears and tie it behind their heads.This makes their ears stick out.Weird

tom hyle · 13th March 2011, 02:42 PM

found it! Machete filipina to compare to parang pandat

Ian · 21st January 2017, 06:33 AM

This is an old thread about a mystery machete-like knife with a bifid hilt. They are not common, but they are old enough to be found in Spanish museums that collected them in the 19th C. The knife was eventually identified because the individual holding it in the studio photograph had ear ornaments peculiar to the Ilongot.

Attached to this post is a picture of Ilongot warriors carrying these large knives. The bifurcated ends of the hilts and circular disc guards are clearly visible. That these are Ilongot men is confirmed by the man standing at the right of the picture--the head dress he wears is unique to the Ilongot and is made from a particular hornbill. This head dress can only be worn by a warrior who has taken the head of an enemy. The Ilongot were headhunters until the mid-20th C. when they were finally persuaded by the Philippines Government to stop their headhunting practices.

CCUAL · 21st January 2017, 03:54 PM

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ivory+kampilan

Another example posted by Indianajones.

Ian · 21st January 2017, 05:33 PM

CCUAL:

Thanks for bringing these pics back up. That is probably the best example of this rare knife that I have seen. Remarkably complete and looks as though it comes from the same time period as shown in the picture I just posted above.

The sticker on the scabbard says:

BOLO SWORD
TAGALOG PHILIPPINES

Obviously not a Tagalog knife.

Like Indianajones, I have been looking for one of these for a long time.

Ian

23rd April 2005, 08:32 PM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	not sure; Carter & I usually agree about machete, but use very different language; he tends to talk about the action of the hand and wrist that produce the proper/true machete cut, while I tend to talk about its result; the way it moves the cutting tip through the.....workpiece? victim? Also, I don't remember if he said anything about the African connection that seems fairly clear to me. It's been a while; I'll re-read.....dang homework Rick; doesn't mace come in under that same etymology somewhere? To chew up or to crush.....that's what I was thinking, anyway. Last edited by tom hyle; 23rd April 2005 at 08:44 PM.

24th April 2005, 03:10 AM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Meshes fairly well, I think. I had forgotten Carters' creditting of American Indian stick use for machete origins. A very good spice to add to the mix He does also mention the more usually heard lineage through the "sailors' cutlass" and other european hangers, including dual use types like langenmesser (commonly called grossmesser; props to Therion for diseminating the more correct form, or at least he says so, and he's probably right, but I don't know how the argument goes.....cutlace, cuttoe, there was a Spanish version, too; a dual-use soldiers' and peasants' landclearing sword with a curved blade and wide tip, but I forget the name; I think Museum Rep.s once had a copy for sale). It is worth noting that machetes are said to be commonly called "cutlass" in the Caribean region. The resemblance to butchering knives is A/intentional, as there has always been a somewhat legalistic claim that machete (as with many large European peasant knives) is a knife, rather than a sword; ie nonviolent ( so strong and persistent is this custom that N American men still regularly tell me "That's not a sword; that's a machete!" Yeah, and that's not a mammal, it's a dog.....the women [of course?] more usually know that they don't know..... ), and B/ only pertains to the overall view of the sword, and the handle design, but certainly the cross-section is different in that machete, even when it does have a slight full height bevel, has a thick, heavy, relatively obtusely angled edge for strength against battering, compared to a butchering knife's thin, fine, acute edge for slashing/slicing. Carter also mentions the way the term seems to be much more broadly applied and to heavier implements in Spain than in at least N America. I don't think he's right about machete costeno of the Acapulco region being a post wwII phenomenon. This is the "yelman" machete; also known, I am told, as "cuchilla del costa" or (West) coast knife. We've all seen the engraved ones, I guess, with the saddle scabbards and the eagle pommels, that are so very similar to US machetes of the early 20th, and though production of the horn handled distal tapered, full height bevel machete seems to have gone on longer in Mexico than US, many of them seem quite old. I've an old farmery one, with a different (zoomorphic?) type pommel. The two native ones (I've another with a possibly reshaped Robert Mole blade) that I have both have typical hotstruck Spanish colonial maker's marks; name (personal? family? town?) or initials, as seen on Luzon bolos as well, while the engraving is a later cold process, and this seems typical of Mexican and Spanish colonial work in general? I had a nice little "bowie" though, where there was only engraving "Vivan los Herdez" Herdez is a family name; not sure maker or owner......otherwise it's more often sometimes the other way; hotstruck mark but no engraving, or else both. We're pretty well on the same page it seems as to the role played by the rise of cheap modern spring tempered carbon steel in the rise of this thin, light sword, which lacks stiffness when softer, though one does encounter softer ones, as well. Last edited by tom hyle; 24th April 2005 at 02:09 PM. Reason: Mexico is on N America

24th April 2005, 05:36 PM	#4
nosmo king Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 15	Hello everyone,I was noticing the "mystery" native's earrings.They are called batlings and they are made of hornbill.They are only worn by Ilongots that have taken heads.Here is a pic of an Ilongot with a segmented set of batlings.Notice his facial features!!! Also,one of the Igorot tribes are the Kankana-ey this could be what they meant on that photo. Here's an interesting link:http://www.geocities.com/sagada_igor...ic_groups.html Attached Images Last edited by nosmo king; 24th April 2005 at 05:47 PM. Reason: left out some info

24th April 2005, 09:00 PM	#6
nosmo king Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 15	Ian: the Ilongot have really long hair and pull it around the front of their ears and tie it behind their heads.This makes their ears stick out.Weird Attached Images

21st January 2017, 06:33 AM	#8
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	This is an old thread about a mystery machete-like knife with a bifid hilt. They are not common, but they are old enough to be found in Spanish museums that collected them in the 19th C. The knife was eventually identified because the individual holding it in the studio photograph had ear ornaments peculiar to the Ilongot. Attached to this post is a picture of Ilongot warriors carrying these large knives. The bifurcated ends of the hilts and circular disc guards are clearly visible. That these are Ilongot men is confirmed by the man standing at the right of the picture--the head dress he wears is unique to the Ilongot and is made from a particular hornbill. This head dress can only be worn by a warrior who has taken the head of an enemy. The Ilongot were headhunters until the mid-20th C. when they were finally persuaded by the Philippines Government to stop their headhunting practices. Attached Images

24th April 2005, 07:52 AM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Leyte has an official website with a map. Abuyog is on the East coast. There is a town called Kananga in the interior, for whatever that might mean.

24th April 2005, 07:13 PM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Nosmo: I've blown up that picture of the guy with the bandana a few times and I thought that the two pieces of material coming down each side of his head were the two ends of the bandana tied around his forehead. Really hard to make out much detail in our mystery man photo. Ian.

13th March 2011, 02:42 PM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	found it! Machete filipina to compare to parang pandat

21st January 2017, 03:54 PM	#9
CCUAL Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 76	http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ivory+kampilan Another example posted by Indianajones. Attached Images

21st January 2017, 05:33 PM	#10
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	CCUAL: Thanks for bringing these pics back up. That is probably the best example of this rare knife that I have seen. Remarkably complete and looks as though it comes from the same time period as shown in the picture I just posted above. The sticker on the scabbard says: BOLO SWORD TAGALOG PHILIPPINES Obviously not a Tagalog knife. Like Indianajones, I have been looking for one of these for a long time. Ian Last edited by Ian; 21st January 2017 at 06:25 PM.