Ainu knives

[pbleed]

Fiends,
Well, gee. I have been involved in the petty pace and slow in replying. There are 2 issues that need comment.
1. The small ivory knife frm the Brooklyn Museum that Gav posted. Far be it from me to disagree with the experts in Brooklyn, BUT, I am pretty sure that this is NOT Ainu. I would bet that it is early 19th century Japanese work in what is called a "topei" style mouting and that it is basically a flower arrangment tool. I have seen these little knifesd almost Netsuke size in a style rather like Ainu blades, but I am sure that this one is pure Japanese. I say that for 2 reasons. First the work in ivory is very well done, professional rather than "folk." The motifs are not very 'Ainu.' Second, the blade - inside sharpened, scoll clipped tip -is right out of flower arrangement. But, hey, can museums make mistakes?
2. To Jim's statement about "ceremonial use" of Ainu swords, I would say "Well, yes, but..." Makiri and bush knifes were basically working tools. I'll post a couple more images tomorrow to illustrate these types. The ainu also had longer swords that were large "trade goods" from Japanese officials. I think these overwhelmingly WERE used as symbolic and 'ceremonial" rigs that marked " 'portant people.
Peter

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by pbleed

Fiends,
1. The small ivory knife frm the Brooklyn Museum that Gav posted. Far be it from me to disagree with the experts in Brooklyn, BUT, I am pretty sure that this is NOT Ainu. Peter

G'day Peter, just to be clear this is a knife that was passed as an AInu knife in an auction.

I have not had the pleasure of viewing anything from the Brooklyn museum other than what I have seen in print.

Thank you very much for pointing out what the piece is though and I am glad I refrained from bidding and I can adjust my notes.

I look forward to viewing your blades when the chance comes along.

Gav

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by pbleed

Fiends,
Well, gee. I have been involved in the petty pace and slow in replying. There are 2 issues that need comment.
1. The small ivory knife frm the Brooklyn Museum that Gav posted. Far be it from me to disagree with the experts in Brooklyn, BUT, I am pretty sure that this is NOT Ainu. I would bet that it is early 19th century Japanese work in what is called a "topei" style mouting and that it is basically a flower arrangment tool. I have seen these little knifesd almost Netsuke size in a style rather like Ainu blades, but I am sure that this one is pure Japanese. I say that for 2 reasons. First the work in ivory is very well done, professional rather than "folk." The motifs are not very 'Ainu.' Second, the blade - inside sharpened, scoll clipped tip -is right out of flower arrangement. But, hey, can museums make mistakes?
2. To Jim's statement about "ceremonial use" of Ainu swords, I would say "Well, yes, but..." Makiri and bush knifes were basically working tools. I'll post a couple more images tomorrow to illustrate these types. The ainu also had longer swords that were large "trade goods" from Japanese officials. I think these overwhelmingly WERE used as symbolic and 'ceremonial" rigs that marked " 'portant people.
Peter

Thank you so much Peter, this is outstanding information!! and valuable for adjusting the shambles of my notes. I really appreciate your sharing your knowledge on these here, as I know that you are one of few people I am aware of who has actually studied this subject in detail.
I join with Gav in really looking forward to more discussion on the Ainu weapons, and have long felt that it would be great to have the topic developed in more depth here. The detail on the flower arranging knives is great, and I had never even thought of such an item. What resource would have more on these, for identification if someone were to begin collecting them for example?

If I may, you have noted that the small knife is Japanese, would it be safe to say that the arc shape of these weapons overall is something adopted from Japanese style? I know that the Ainu maintained very close trade and diplomatic ties with them in nominal degree, and probably in regional selectivity, but your notes on the larger Japanese swords and thier use is well placed.
Although I have noted the ceremonial use, I cannot help thinking that these very effective swords might have been used in some degree, even if only in specific events. If I recall correctly, the bow and arrow were the primary weapon.

Thank you again Peter, it really is fantastic to have you posting here!!!!

All the best,
Jim

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you again Peter, it really is fantastic to have you posting here!!!!

All the best,
Jim

I second that Peter, please continue!!!

Gav

[ausjulius]

there wasa website some place on the net showing ainu swords and knives.. but i cant recall the web address.. it had some interestiong information in it .