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12th February 2009, 12:27 AM
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#1 |
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(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
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Swords baptism - a fashion from the period.
I know this is not news, neither it will "heat or cool" the situation, but i would like to mention it, if you don't mind.
In a precious old book that i am lucky to have  ,dedicated to the edged weapons collection of the Viscount of Pindela, the introduction covers the evolution of the Portuguese (Peninsular) sword. At the X century stage, the author (Alfredo Guimarães) reminds us the general form of the cross (guard) that swords were developing since the carolingian cicle, enlarging and later stabilizing, giving symbolic character to the insignia of western christian knights and promoting, in a significant manner, their baptism (1). In a footnote: (1) " El nombre que se daba a la espada en el bautismo, lo guardaba toda la vida. La de Carlomagno se llamaba Joyeuse, la de Roldan, Aurandal, la de Renato, Flambaut, la de Oliveros, Haute claire, la que el Cid conquistó alo rey moro de Valencia se llamaba Tizona, y la que obtuvo del Conde de Barcelona, Collada. Asi eran particularisadas" -Pompeyo Gener (Pompeyo Gener seems to be a Spanish authority in edged weapons) Need translation, Jim? If so, just tell. Fernando |
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12th February 2009, 01:51 AM
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#2 |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
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There you are Fernando!!!
You seem to have a lot of 'precious old books'!! and as I have always said, they are goldmines of esoterica and important references concerning these weapons typically not found in the more readily available corpus of arms books. Yes, by all means, your translation of that note, puulleeze!!  All the best, Jim |
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12th February 2009, 05:32 AM
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#3 |
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Member
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Location: Manila, Phils.
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The excerpts below from Spanish arms and armour, being a historical and descriptive account of the Royal Armoury of Madrid (1907) will be my humble
 contribution to this very interesting topic!What surprised me in browsing the said book is the dearth of info on the colada and the tizona. Perhaps somebody can tell us the 'inside story' there? By the way, thanks to Gonzalo for referring me to the LINK from where the book (45 mb) can be downloaded. What would I do without you guys?!
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12th February 2009, 01:51 PM
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#4 |
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Arms Historian
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Hi Lorenz,
Its great to have you come in on this with us, and we have agreed, this does seem to be developing into just the intriguing discussion I hoped it would be. I'm glad you added the Calvert reference, as this has stood for some time as one of the few references to Spanish arms in English. Your mention of the dearth of reference to Tizona and Colada is something I also have thought extremely unusual in looking through this work, which is intended to focus on the importance of this collection and Spanish arms in general. While I could not think of any specific reason for the brief mention of these two most important weapons, it does seem that Mr. Calvert was amidst considerable sensitivity as he was a guest in this cataloguing and description. In the assistance provided to him by the Conde de Valencia de San Juan, some of the material discussed reflect the degree of concern toward the sword once thought to be Colada, now considered the Lobera of Ferdinand III. The sword next to it was noted as having been attributed to Roland erroneously, but now 'possibly' one of Ferdinands swords (G22). Tizona was mentioned, but at this point without going into greater detail, only suggesting the sword there was quite likely the true Tizona. I think that with weapons of this stature, Mr. Calvert wisely limited his review of them to the levels of information shared by the Conde, and avoided further speculation. Moving on, I think what is most interesting here are the entries on the G21 sword formerly thought to be Colada, and now believed to be the 'Lobera' of King Ferdinand III (King of Castile and Leon, reuniting them in 1231). It is noted by Calvert on p.32 (...how the name Lobera came to be applied to a sword is unknown). What is interesting to me is why the question about the Lobera name for a sword, and speculation about the name of a person reflected in memoirs . It seems worthy of note here that in this reference, the sword is referred to as a "lobera sword" and of its great virtue. Somehow there is key focus on the naming of this sword, yet the names of Tizona and Colada are not really reviewed here or it appears in any depth in other references I have seen. One thing I would offer here for consideration, is another reference in the Calvert text (also p.32) referring to the virtue of ones 'lobera' sword, in a seemingly more general reference. In looking into what I could find for translation of 'lobera' it seems that the term in variation refers to a wolf pack or wolves lair. While admittedly reaching at this point, I find it interesting that roughly in this period, the concept of using a wolf as a marking guaranteeing the quality of a blade was about to become a known practice. This would be in the established arms making location from earlier Roman Noricum that became Passau. In trying to locate a place name in Spain that would have the name Lobera, it seems that in Zaragoza there is a municipality named Lobera de Onsella. In later period the famed swordsmith Julian del Rey is said to have used the wolf marking, working in both Toledo and Zaragoza. While it is unclear whether the image used is actually a wolf, or possibly a lion, it has been generally held that it was a wolf (actually referred to as a perillo =dog). Clearly not connected directly to this case being discussed, it seems worthy of note that there could be a remote connection to wolf marking deriving from this earlier possibility. Perhaps the term 'lobera' was a colloquial metaphor for a sword or type of sword, much in the way the 'fox' became used by Shakespeares time to describe a sword. In this region of NE Spain, this had been colonized by the Romans, later the Islamic Taifa (Kingdom) of Saraqustah (Zaragoza) and c.1035 AD under Frankish fuedal fiefs. This is my admittedly limited understanding of the complexity of Spanish history, but the point I am hoping to make is that the name 'Lobera' for this sword, in my opinion is once again, a reference to where the sword was likely made. It would seem that this could be a place name, as in the one I found (I'm sure there are others) in which Zaragosa is of course known for sword making. It was well known as one of the campaign regions for Charlemagne (which brings up once again his paladin, Roland ) which makes it tempting to consider how the attribution for the G22 sword emerged. It would seem that in these times, a sword made in Zaragoza, with the earlier influences of not only the Frankish swords but Islamic makers, would be of the virtues (quality) expressly noted. How the lobera term becomes applied is at this point completely unclear, and again, what I have compiled is purely speculation. I have placed it here for the consideration and discussion of those of you who are without a doubt more advanced in Spanish history than I am, and very much look forward to your thoughts and observatiobs. All best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 12th February 2009 at 02:04 PM. |
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13th February 2009, 12:57 AM
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#5 | |
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Member
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Location: Kent
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Quote:
Mr Holmes would be proud  Best Regards David |
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13th February 2009, 02:38 AM
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#6 |
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Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Nothern Mexico
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Well, if Calvert´s descriptions are as erroneous or ambiguos as the mentioned in many pages, we have serious problems. Calvert speaks of a coat of mail composed of "scales" (pag. 19), and his lack of knowledge of castillian does not permit him understand many words from the poems related to El Cid, like "lóriga", which designates in fact a scale armour, and he translates as "riven mail", meaning rivetted mail and "huesos", which means "bones", as leggins (pag. 23),.
Also, Jim, "Lobera" in spanish means two things. The place, den, cave or hole where the little wolves born and are raised, and if referred to a sword, it could mean a sword to kill wolves. It does not necessarily designates real wolves, as the word could be used in a poetic sense. Lobera is the equivalent of the italian word "lupara", which designates a shotgun to kill wolves, a shepherd´s shotgun. Also, there is a mention of this sword as belonged previously to a chevalier who´s last name is Lobera, and this is also a very plausible and acceptable explanation of the name given to the sword. The Colada is actually mounted in a 15-16th Century style and the blade looks of a newer model than the Tizona, IMHO. Regards Gonzalo Last edited by Gonzalo G; 13th February 2009 at 03:38 AM. |
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13th February 2009, 03:49 AM
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#7 |
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Arms Historian
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Thanks so much David!!! Thinkin' outside the box again...right or wrong, its fun to evaluate data.
Thank you Gonzalo, for explaining the more concise definition of lobera. Naturally as a non Spanish speaker, despite variations and semantics, I sort of expected that there might be more to the term's actual meaning. Still, in romanticized allusion, who knows where the intended use of such a term might have gone on those times. Perhaps the place where the wolf swords were made (born) was a 'lair'? Doesn't really sound too much more bizarre than the allegories I read through concerning the names applied to the swords of the chilvalric heroes, including flaming swords, etc. Thanks again for your observations on my notes, as always I appreciate your knowledgable input as I offer these speculations. All very best regards, Jim |
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28th February 2009, 11:51 PM
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#8 | |
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Member
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Location: Nothern Mexico
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Quote:
Regards Gonzalo |
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14th February 2009, 11:32 AM
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#9 | |
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Member
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Location: Manila, Phils.
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Quote:
Yes indeed, a very interesting topic to say the least! While Googling for colada and tizona, I found this Wikipedia article on the List of magical weapons, which is mainly about swords. Here's an excerpt, and I highlighted the subject swords for easier browsing: I don't know whether it's fair to put the historical colada and tizona in the above quoted list, as most of the blades there are fictitious. Anyways, I just thought I'd throw in the above list for whatever it's worth!
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14th February 2009, 04:12 PM
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#10 |
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Arms Historian
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Yikes, Lorenz!!
Now thats compehensive, Thank you for adding this list, and it does show the mythical weapons of literary classics and legend...and as you note, many, if not most are in some degree either fictitious or contained in illustrious descriptive metaphor. With a number of these weapons, they actually existed, however they have been embellished or metaphorically described in so much literature that often conflicts with another, that in cases where these swords are supposed to still exist, there are unsurprisingly disputed perspectives on their authenticity. Heroic figures such as El Cid, Charlemagne, Joan of Arc and so many others of course used swords, but they have reached such lofty stature in legend, it almost seems that to hold a sword said to have belonged to any one of them would seem almost disappointing, as a mere mortal object. This is my own perception at least, though in my mind I choose to imagine what these swords were like. I recall once researching a sword said to have been used by a heroic Scottish figure during the time of the English civil wars, who was said to have had a huge sword with a ten pound sliding weight on a rod on the blade, there to add force to the deadly cut. A writer was doing research for a period novel and wanted to add as much authenticity as possible, always admirable. It was incredibly fascinating and I found most of the events and locations associated with the individual factual, however in varying degree embellished. For example a castle was actually a rather large home or estate, and as always, the battles were of course not like the movies. The 'ten pound' weight was naturally impossible, and the first sign of improbability, for even in the unlikely case he was actually using a true claymore..the huge two hand sword, such a weight would make use of one of these uncontrollable....especially sliding up and down the blade! The term 'claymore' as noted, typically describes these huge two hand swords used during medieval times, but had mostly fallen out of use in Scotland by the 17th century, naturally with known exceptions. Many of these huge blades did end up in the developing basket hilt form, made famous in Scotland, cut down from these heirloom two hand swords. In yet another case of the semantics and misinterpretations with the study of weapons, the term 'claymore' became popularly applied to the single hand basket hilts. Pehaps this was due to the known use in so many cases of 'claymore' blades, but whatever the case, in understanding contemporary literature and narratives, the conflicting terms can be confounding. I never found any evidence of any sword with such a sliding weight on the blade, despite obviously the well known sliding bearings in open channels in the blades of 'tears of the wounded' swords of China, India and Persia. These were primarily ceremonial or parade type swords, with the sound of the moving bearings more thier purpose than any weight or force transfer. I also found another mythical reference to such a blade with moving weight however, in a romanticized book about the famed Bowie knife, and of course regarded the context accordingly. The sword attributed to the Scottish hero was eventually discovered, and honestly it was disappointing when there was no sliding weight, nor was it the huge claymore I imagined. Somehow, the stature of the hero himself to me was never compromised, and I realized that such a feature really was never needed, as the achievements of the man himself was the power and force. Perhaps even as mere mortals, we all have such power and force within ourselves in our own ways. I'd like to think so... All best regards, Jim |
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14th February 2009, 06:19 PM
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#11 |
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Member
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Location: Kent
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Swords such as Tizona and Colada have 'power' as political 'status' symbols. Later leaders may use such an 'icon' to 'rally' its people to a cause.
Holy relics (in Europe) were often faked, but the masses, unaware would travel 'hundreds of miles' on pilgrimages to view them. This gave the owners power, prestige and often , an income .Hitler, himself, ordered the search for the 'spear of destiny', the spear alleged to have pierced Christ's side during the crucifixion. He realised, the political power and status he would gain by it's possession . In fact 'the' spear was recently denounced as a medieval fake .... During the Crusades there is a story where they were heavily outnumbered and their morale low. A monk allegedly had a vision that the "holy lance" would aid them. " .....Meanwhile in Antioch, on June 10 an otherwise poor and insignificant monk by the name of Peter Bartholomew came forward claiming to have had visions of St. Andrew, who told him that the Holy Lance was inside the city. The starving crusaders were prone to visions and hallucinations, and another monk named Stephen of Valence reported visions of Christ and the Virgin Mary. On June 14 a meteor was seen landing in the enemy camp, interpreted as a good omen. Although Adhemar was suspicious, as he had seen a relic of the Holy Lance in Constantinople, Raymond believed Peter. Raymond, Raymond of Aguilers, William, Bishop of Orange, and others began to dig in the cathedral of St. Peter on June 15, and when they came up empty, Peter went into the pit, reached down, and produced a spear point. Raymond took this as a divine sign that they would survive and thus prepared for a final fight rather than surrender. Peter then reported another vision, in which St. Andrew instructed the crusader army to fast for five days (although they were already starving), after which they would be victorious. Bohemund was sceptical of the Holy Lance as well, but there is no question that its discovery increased the morale of the crusaders. It is also possible that Peter was reporting what Bohemund wanted, rather than what St. Andrew wanted, as Bohemund knew, from spies in Kerbogha's camp, that the various factions frequently argued with each other, and they would probably not work together as a cohesive unit in battle......" http://www.stnicholas-billings.org/H...ochcapture.htm It would seem likely, that these two swords have been replaced with impostors ..which would have been staunchly 'defended' as being the originals ...by those whom had possession of them ...to achieve their political agenda.. much like the 'holy relics'...... In my opinion, the web of lies and deceit created would make research incredibly difficult as later generations continued to believe their truth. Interesting thread  Regards David |
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14th February 2009, 10:17 PM
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#12 |
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Arms Historian
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Outstanding history David ! and its great to look further into so much of this that is connected to the weapons that took part in it. This is exactly what I believe the study of weapons and thier development and history is about.
It is true that the weapons attributed to key historic and heroic figures are indeed important icons that carry tremendous power in promoting national pride and often patriotic fervor. The 'Spear of Longinus' is another great example of this concept of power symbolized by a weapon as an icon. Actually, though there is a great deal of PR work that seems to have been involved with many weapons of such legendary stature, but I often wonder if there is not a degree of actuality in many cases. The weapons on display in museums of course are often restored or at least receive maintainance for thier preservation. I am not sure on the Tizona or Colada swords, but in the case of the Boabdil sword which has elaborate mounts that may be end of 15th century, but also may be early 16th. Some references claim the blade is probably Berber, yet note it appears pattern welded. As always, I disclaim any great understanding of metallurgy, but whatever the case is with the blade, the fact that it seems to have been remounted with a more elaborate hilt to better represent the stature of this extremely important and heroic figure. It would seem quite possible that the blades on these weapons might have been from the period claimed, and remounted in accord with more current fashion in a well meant show of respect. This is as least the concept I believe most commonly held with weapons held in high esteem in many cultures, and I know that many weapons were remounted many times in thier working lives. There were apparantly tests on the blade of the Tizona sword, but it seems unclear on the actual outcome. On one hand it is claimed the blade is 11th century, and the other the same 15th-16th century attribution that seems to correspond to the Boabdil sword and Colada. Whether there is intentional deception involved, or simply stubborn refusal to let go of what is believed without regard for scientific or scholarly analysis is hard to say. It would be good to see some serious study in examining all of these swords, and if anyone is aware of any such case, I hope they will let us know here. All best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 15th February 2009 at 01:32 AM. |
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16th February 2009, 09:17 PM
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#13 | ||
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Quote:
Thanks for the comments. I guess all I can say is that if historical swords have joined the ranks of mythical and "magical" swords, then those real swords must really be that good whatever "good" means. And the other thing that this veil of mystery does is that it continually feeds the legend, which then of course perpetuates the stories even more. I guess a sword couldn't ask for more! Quote:
Thanks for your post. And expanding the discussion to include historical similarities surely puts the subject swords in better perspective. Isn't it interesting that the deceased El Cid was used as a rallying point then, and his swords continue to be used as such apparently? So for political propagandists (for lack of a better word), to them I guess it's not important whether the thing is true or not. Interesting thread indeed ... PS - On the power of belief and as an aside, as Neo (The Matrix) said "There is no spoon."
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12th February 2009, 01:21 PM
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#14 | |
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(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
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Let me try. Castillian speakers, don't hit me
 .Quote:
"The name given to a sword in its baptism, was kept for all life. That of Charlemagne was called Joyeuse, that of Roldan, Aurandal, that of Renato, Flambaut, that of Oliver (the Dane) Haute claire, the one that el Cid conquered from the moor King in Valencia was called Tizona, and the one that he obtained from the count of Barcelona, Collada. In this way they were particularised." As i said, nothing new, just a confirmation of what is vastly divulged. Fernando |
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12th February 2009, 02:43 PM
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#15 | |
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Arms Historian
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Quote:
Thank you so much Fernando! Actually it is great to see this translated before me, as I have been here most of the night instead of sleeping...which was impossible with paladins charging back and forth in my head! I have been wading through this maddening sea of literary folklore for hours, and these sword names are really confused or confusing or both. Charlemagnes sword was indeed Joyeuse, and again it is described with what seems to derive from metallurgical metaphor...."...never was there a sword to match it, its color changed thirty times a day". Again, who has it? Some say it was buried with him, some say it was held at St.Denys Basilica then taken to the Louvre, some say it is in the Imperial Treasury at Vienna. But then, another of Charlemagnes sword was 'flamberge' or 'floberge' (=flame cutter), but noted that this 'name/term' was used for Rinaldo's and Maugis' swords also. In another note Rinaldo's sword is named Frusberta. (?) Hauteclere, the sword of Oliver, who was another of Charlemagnes paladins, along with Rinaldo, and of course Roland. The 'Dane' was known as 'Ogier the Dane' (Holger Danske) one of Charlemagnes vassals, and whose sword was Curtana......the name of course later applied to other swords. It is also noted that 'Courtain' (=short sword)was but one of Ogier's swords, the other was named 'Sauvigne'. Perhaps here again, like Tizona and Colada being single and two hand swords, these were types as well? Incidentally, inscribed on 'Curtana' it is inscribed on the blade: "...my name is Curtana, of the same steel and temper as Joyuese and Durandal". Which brings us to 'Durandal' which was the sword of Roland, as mentioned previously, but Charlemagnes 'right hand' paladin. This sword is afforded even more romantic allusion, and described as having previously been owned by Hector of Troy, and won from the giant Jutmundus. Added to this mythology for the blade, the hilt was said to have contained a thread from the cloak of the Virgin Mary; tooth of St. Peter; a hair of St. Denys and a drop of St. Basils blood. In battle when Roland was mortally wounded he desperately tried to break Durandal, but the sound sword would not break, so he 'threw it into a poisoned stream' so as not to fall into enemy hands. So there is the bedlam of my sleepless night, the naming of swords and thier allusions which are becoming my delusions!! All the best, Jim |
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