Help pls. on 15th-17th C. cutlass & scimitar

migueldiaz · 7th February 2009, 11:57 PM

Hola Manuel!

First of all, thanks for the comment on the Tizona. I didn't know that there's some controversy surrounding its authenticity.

I can only wonder what happened to the career of the people who recommended buying the piece for 1.6 million Euros!

On the colonization thing, in what you said, there are points I agree with, and on some I disagree. But that's ok ... on the latter we can just agree to disagree

As an old friend told me, if two people are *always* agreeing, one is a pope and the other is a dope ... and no offense meant to those whose fondest dream is to become the former!

So for me, all that history is water under the bridge (no hard feelings), and we all just learn from it (what Santayana said is very important), and we move on.

[Jim, sir thanks for kindly reminding everyone to stick to the topic. Like in all discussions though, it's sometimes the "by the way's" that turn out to be more interesting. But like any moving cavalry or sword wielding infantry, we have to have the discipline ... sorry for the stream of consciousness rambling!]

Hey, wife is now blowing the car horn so I have to run now.

But let me thank in advance Jim, Gonzalo, and last but not the least Fernando for the most interesting additional info given. I'll comment and make my follow up queries on those later! But let me reiterate my thanks mi querido amigos, as I truly appreciate the additional info!!

Best regards, Manuel!

Lorenz

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

Hi Miguel Diaz,

Be thankful it was the Spanish who colonized Filipinas, and gave you a Hispanic culture besides your native ones. Remember that most other colonizing powers didn't have any place _at all_ for the native populations.

Spain gave Filipinas cohesion as a National entity, the first concept of unity Filipinos had was when you all became Spanish. Before that, it was just a bunch of separated islands more often than not at War with each other. Add to that Chinese incursions, pirates et al.

So, taking that into account, it was not a matter of "dividing", but more of uniting against common enemies, and that's exactly how all Nations are born.

Best regards

Manuel

BTW: There's lot of dissension about the Tizona being the real McCoy. It is believed by most Spanish historians that the one currently described as Tizona is another sword of the same period.

ward · 8th February 2009, 02:57 AM

I have an illustrated article on form and symbolism of scimitars, sabers and broadswords in Renaissance painting with a lot of good info on this subject.
If anyone is interested I'll post it lmk

Jim McDougall · 8th February 2009, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ward

I have an illustrated article on form and symbolism of scimitars, sabers and broadswords in Renaissance painting with a lot of good info on this subject.
If anyone is interested I'll post it lmk

Just saw this Ward....that would be great to see some detail on this fascinating term, and I think learning more on these weapons as they appear in art would be great. We have seen a lot of such detail shared here with focus on the firearms, especially the material posted by Matchlock (Michael), and to add this dimension is a wonderful idea.
Thanks very much Ward,

All the best,
Jim

migueldiaz · 8th February 2009, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ward

I have an illustrated article on form and symbolism of scimitars, sabers and broadswords in Renaissance painting with a lot of good info on this subject. If anyone is interested I'll post it lmk

Hi Ward,

Thanks! and let me kindly reiterate that that we indeed look forward with eagerness to your subsequent posts, as you mentioned. Thanks again ...

Gonzalo G · 9th February 2009, 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ward

I have an illustrated article on form and symbolism of scimitars, sabers and broadswords in Renaissance painting with a lot of good info on this subject.
If anyone is interested I'll post it lmk

Ward, of course we are interested!! Please just post it. If you need my mail to send it, just PM me.

Gonzalo G · 9th February 2009, 02:37 AM

Miguel, I suggest you to pay a virtual visit to the Museo de la Fundación Lázaro Galdiano itself. It has it´s pieces online. I have already posted the link in an older thread, but there it is:

http://www.flg.es/museo/museo.htm

It could be a little tricky to search, but there are many authentic historical pieces there.
Regards

Gonzalo

migueldiaz · 9th February 2009, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Miguel, I suggest you to pay a virtual visit to the Museo de la Fundación Lázaro Galdiano itself. It has it´s pieces online. I have already posted the link in an older thread, but there it is: http://www.flg.es/museo/museo.htm

Gonzalo, got this, thanks!

Will take a look at this now.

Lorenz

Jim McDougall · 9th February 2009, 04:29 PM

Hi Miguel,
Pretty good job working on the translations, as if I am any authority ..I dont speak or read it either, but can sometimes cobble a general overview.
Not sure about the pidgeon house thing

All I know is in the 17th century, Palomares put together some boxed panels of illustrations of makers marks, then numerically labeled them.

On the Conquistador book...the Osprey titles are great....work excellent for me with limited library space...and I just ordered 'The Conquistadors' by David Nicolle (also an Osprey title)...I just like Nicolle's work (my opinion, easy on the critical reviews everybody

.

We've really got a pretty good discussion going here, and I spent most of the day yesterday looking everywhere for info on Tizona and Colada, and think I'll put that on a different thread to see if we can get deeper into these two swords by that reference in the thread title.

All the best,
Jim

migueldiaz · 9th February 2009, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... We've really got a pretty good discussion going here, and I spent most of the day yesterday looking everywhere for info on Tizona and Colada, and think I'll put that on a different thread to see if we can get deeper into these two swords by that reference in the thread title.

Jim, great idea! And I'll follow that other new thread with great interest for sure

Jim McDougall · 8th February 2009, 03:01 AM

Thanks very much guys, I really appreciate the cooperation! I didnt want this thing to derail, and I want to keep our forum clear of personality issues.

Good notes on the bracamante Fernando...and the illustration looks remarkably like the English one of medieval times known as the 'Conyers falchion', but here again I am drawing from memory.

The scimitar term is indeed still tossed around in lterature and as noted, various fantasy swords.....but actually I have seen the term used in a number of very scholarly historic accounts. I have often been amazed at the text of many military history references, which often include considerable detail on uniforms, artillery and firearms, but swords are reduced to either straight or curved sabres, while the scimitars are cliche', carrying the exotic image of Moorish and Middle Eastern warriors.

All best regards,
Jim

8th February 2009, 02:57 AM	#2
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	I have an illustrated article on form and symbolism of scimitars, sabers and broadswords in Renaissance painting with a lot of good info on this subject. If anyone is interested I'll post it lmk

9th February 2009, 02:37 AM	#6
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Miguel, I suggest you to pay a virtual visit to the Museo de la Fundación Lázaro Galdiano itself. It has it´s pieces online. I have already posted the link in an older thread, but there it is: http://www.flg.es/museo/museo.htm It could be a little tricky to search, but there are many authentic historical pieces there. Regards Gonzalo

9th February 2009, 04:29 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Hi Miguel, Pretty good job working on the translations, as if I am any authority ..I dont speak or read it either, but can sometimes cobble a general overview. Not sure about the pidgeon house thing All I know is in the 17th century, Palomares put together some boxed panels of illustrations of makers marks, then numerically labeled them. On the Conquistador book...the Osprey titles are great....work excellent for me with limited library space...and I just ordered 'The Conquistadors' by David Nicolle (also an Osprey title)...I just like Nicolle's work (my opinion, easy on the critical reviews everybody . We've really got a pretty good discussion going here, and I spent most of the day yesterday looking everywhere for info on Tizona and Colada, and think I'll put that on a different thread to see if we can get deeper into these two swords by that reference in the thread title. All the best, Jim

8th February 2009, 03:01 AM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Thanks very much guys, I really appreciate the cooperation! I didnt want this thing to derail, and I want to keep our forum clear of personality issues. Good notes on the bracamante Fernando...and the illustration looks remarkably like the English one of medieval times known as the 'Conyers falchion', but here again I am drawing from memory. The scimitar term is indeed still tossed around in lterature and as noted, various fantasy swords.....but actually I have seen the term used in a number of very scholarly historic accounts. I have often been amazed at the text of many military history references, which often include considerable detail on uniforms, artillery and firearms, but swords are reduced to either straight or curved sabres, while the scimitars are cliche', carrying the exotic image of Moorish and Middle Eastern warriors. All best regards, Jim