importing Keris to UK

Mark · 19th April 2005, 10:36 PM

OK. I have re-opened the thread after editing certain posts and deleting others.

First, everyone should understand that this editing/deleting is no reflection on the poster.

We had no policy or guidelines in place, so there was no offense or foul by anyone. Us mods just got thinking, and thought that the absense of a policy on this issue might be a problem, so we froze things to consider what to do, and this is the solution we arrived at.

So, here is a guideline for discussing laws, regulations and legal issues (drum-roll, please):

Discussion of laws, regulation and legal issues, such as those relating to the ownership of edged weapons, or their transportation, importation or exportation, on the open forum is fine (and very educational and helpful besides), so long as suggestions for ways to circumvent said laws or regulations, such as shipping and/or labeling strategies, are not brought into the discussion.

This is for the protection of the posters, because some governement bloke with too much time on his/her hands and a yen for strict enforcement of the law may decide that someone is instigating or aiding and abetting a crime by making such suggestions.

Discussions of your own experiences with customs, local possession laws, etc. is fine, again so long as you do not discuss "strategies" for circumventing or avoiding them (even if it is simply suggesting a careful choice of words that tends not to excite the attention of the authorities).

If there is interest in exchanging such "strategic" information, I suggest using private e-mails.

Finally, I tried to be consistent in the editing and deleting. No one should be affended, and if you notice something I missed, or think something should have remained, feel free to send me a PM and I will check it.

vinny · 20th April 2005, 08:32 AM

Moderators

Thankyou for spotting that, and making us aware. I would never deliberately use deceptive or misleading descriptions though. I was just wondering if anyone had successfully bought something over e-bay and it shipped fine, or if there were tails of things disappearing at customs.

But thanks again, for looking after us!

Regards
Vinny

Mark · 20th April 2005, 02:22 PM

I have heard one real horror story about customs, from Manoucher. He had an antique jambya (I believe) sent into Germany and it was confiscated by customs because it did not have a certification as a bona fide antique. I believe the issue was more the handle material than the knife itself. He ended up in a Catch-22 situation where German customs would not release th item without certification, would not accept after-the-fact certification from either the seller or an outside expert, and would not permit the item to be sent back to the seller.

This is an example of strict adherence to the law. CITES requires that certification accompany the piece, and prohibits import, export, or transport of covered items. So, without accompanying papers customs would not allow it out of their control, and without papers they would not permit it to be shipped out of the country. I never heard whether or not he managed to work it out, but my guess is that the jambya is sitting in a warehouse somewhere in Franfurt.

I am in the process of obtaining import/export permits for some ivory handles pieces, and I will let everyone know how it goes and what wsa sufficient supporting evidence, at least for the U.S. authorities.

Mick · 20th April 2005, 08:08 PM

Mark

I see that you have upgraded your old CITES statement in the original forum section. You might reference this in the new topic. Elephant ivory is handled (permits) by the U.S.Fish and Wildlife Service, but I think marine ivory is under NOAA. This shows that the system is more screwed up in the U.S. than you can imagine. I believe that other countries in which the original species does not exist (especially second and third world countries) are hard put to figure a permitting system out. I mean that if the article is found in one of these countries how would you get a permit to export the item. You would probably just get a refusal as this is the easiest and safest answer.

I looked up this material when your first article was put on the forum and (although I can’t remember where I found the information or find it again right now) the act applies to any portion of one of the referenced animals. This means that the old elephant’s foot umbrella stand that your grandfather had in the hallway also falls under the act. If you sell this thing at a garage sale for a couple of bucks you are also liable.

Mark · 20th April 2005, 09:02 PM

Absolutely right on all counts. Also, the U.S. Customs service has their toes in it as well, since they are the ones who are often checking incoming and outgoing shipments and documentation.

One interesting twist to CITES in the U.S. (I really need to write a better article on this -- after I get my permits approved, promise), you can only import/export through specific ports of entry, of which there are only about eight. This is even for air shipments as I understand it. You can get a waiver to use another port, but you have to show financial hardship or hardship on what is being shipped (like Baby Jumbo would suffer too much being shipped from Houston to Baltimore to Berlin than he would direct Houston-Berlin). The laws and regulations are really made for shipping live animals or raw material, rather than smaller items like sword handles. Still, there it is.

19th April 2005, 10:36 PM	#1
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Welcome back OK. I have re-opened the thread after editing certain posts and deleting others. First, everyone should understand that this editing/deleting is no reflection on the poster. We had no policy or guidelines in place, so there was no offense or foul by anyone. Us mods just got thinking, and thought that the absense of a policy on this issue might be a problem, so we froze things to consider what to do, and this is the solution we arrived at. So, here is a guideline for discussing laws, regulations and legal issues (drum-roll, please): Discussion of laws, regulation and legal issues, such as those relating to the ownership of edged weapons, or their transportation, importation or exportation, on the open forum is fine (and very educational and helpful besides), so long as suggestions for ways to circumvent said laws or regulations, such as shipping and/or labeling strategies, are not brought into the discussion. This is for the protection of the posters, because some governement bloke with too much time on his/her hands and a yen for strict enforcement of the law may decide that someone is instigating or aiding and abetting a crime by making such suggestions. Discussions of your own experiences with customs, local possession laws, etc. is fine, again so long as you do not discuss "strategies" for circumventing or avoiding them (even if it is simply suggesting a careful choice of words that tends not to excite the attention of the authorities). If there is interest in exchanging such "strategic" information, I suggest using private e-mails. Finally, I tried to be consistent in the editing and deleting. No one should be affended, and if you notice something I missed, or think something should have remained, feel free to send me a PM and I will check it.

20th April 2005, 08:32 AM	#2
vinny Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: England Posts: 31	Moderators Thankyou for spotting that, and making us aware. I would never deliberately use deceptive or misleading descriptions though. I was just wondering if anyone had successfully bought something over e-bay and it shipped fine, or if there were tails of things disappearing at customs. But thanks again, for looking after us! Regards Vinny

20th April 2005, 02:22 PM	#3
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	I have heard one real horror story about customs, from Manoucher. He had an antique jambya (I believe) sent into Germany and it was confiscated by customs because it did not have a certification as a bona fide antique. I believe the issue was more the handle material than the knife itself. He ended up in a Catch-22 situation where German customs would not release th item without certification, would not accept after-the-fact certification from either the seller or an outside expert, and would not permit the item to be sent back to the seller. This is an example of strict adherence to the law. CITES requires that certification accompany the piece, and prohibits import, export, or transport of covered items. So, without accompanying papers customs would not allow it out of their control, and without papers they would not permit it to be shipped out of the country. I never heard whether or not he managed to work it out, but my guess is that the jambya is sitting in a warehouse somewhere in Franfurt. I am in the process of obtaining import/export permits for some ivory handles pieces, and I will let everyone know how it goes and what wsa sufficient supporting evidence, at least for the U.S. authorities.

20th April 2005, 08:08 PM	#4
Mick Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 104	Mark I see that you have upgraded your old CITES statement in the original forum section. You might reference this in the new topic. Elephant ivory is handled (permits) by the U.S.Fish and Wildlife Service, but I think marine ivory is under NOAA. This shows that the system is more screwed up in the U.S. than you can imagine. I believe that other countries in which the original species does not exist (especially second and third world countries) are hard put to figure a permitting system out. I mean that if the article is found in one of these countries how would you get a permit to export the item. You would probably just get a refusal as this is the easiest and safest answer. I looked up this material when your first article was put on the forum and (although I can’t remember where I found the information or find it again right now) the act applies to any portion of one of the referenced animals. This means that the old elephant’s foot umbrella stand that your grandfather had in the hallway also falls under the act. If you sell this thing at a garage sale for a couple of bucks you are also liable.

20th April 2005, 09:02 PM	#5
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Absolutely right on all counts. Also, the U.S. Customs service has their toes in it as well, since they are the ones who are often checking incoming and outgoing shipments and documentation. One interesting twist to CITES in the U.S. (I really need to write a better article on this -- after I get my permits approved, promise), you can only import/export through specific ports of entry, of which there are only about eight. This is even for air shipments as I understand it. You can get a waiver to use another port, but you have to show financial hardship or hardship on what is being shipped (like Baby Jumbo would suffer too much being shipped from Houston to Baltimore to Berlin than he would direct Houston-Berlin). The laws and regulations are really made for shipping live animals or raw material, rather than smaller items like sword handles. Still, there it is.