OTTOMAN PALA translation please

ingvar · 4th February 2009, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Source please?

there are many things in history you cannot source. you know.

From what i read from a historian working in Kremlin's Historic Weaponry Room, Pala is a parade version of Klij, things that differ it from a basic Klij is a specific srossguard. Early Pala had a Karabella type pommel, later Pala had a typical bulbous turkish pommel.

In this case the sourse is book "Turkish Weapons" by E. Astvatsaurian.

TVV · 5th February 2009, 03:02 AM

I looked at Astvatsaturian's book and she does indeed use the word "pala" for some of the earlier swords, without giving any reason as to why. I have to say, in comparison to Elgood, she really gives few notes and contemporary accounts in her text. I also noted that the guard shape does not seem that important in her classification, as other sword with upturned quillons are called kilidj in her book.
I think Astvatsaturian is a great author, but we should be careful before we treat published works as Gospel. Another Russian author, Kulinskiy, refers to almost every German bayonet as a hirschfanger, and we know that in german the word was used to describe a completely different weapon, which he calls "hunting dagger" ("кортик").
Personally, I prefer to use weapon names as they were used by their original users, and from what I have read, the word pala was used in the Balkans to refer to a sword, much like the one in the opening post.
Regards,
Teodor

ingvar · 5th February 2009, 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

"hunting dagger" ("кортик")

well "kortik" means "marine dirk", and was worn by the officers only.

But did ou look at her book, or read it?

TVV · 5th February 2009, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ingvar

But did ou look at her book, or read it?

I can read Russian and yes, I read the part about the pala, at the beginning of the chapter on sabres, which was pretty short. The information is somewhat scarce - it seems that Astvatsaturian had a small sample of such swords to examine - 2 swords only, to be precise. The chapter makes no attempt at explaining the name "pala" or "gaddara", and it does not attempt to explore the history of the two swords. All this makes me believe that Astvatsaturian was all that familiar with this sword type herself.
Regards,
Teodor

ingvar · 5th February 2009, 04:22 PM

then, i suppose we've met an ancient "Saber vs Sabre" type of problem

5th February 2009, 03:02 AM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,668	I looked at Astvatsaturian's book and she does indeed use the word "pala" for some of the earlier swords, without giving any reason as to why. I have to say, in comparison to Elgood, she really gives few notes and contemporary accounts in her text. I also noted that the guard shape does not seem that important in her classification, as other sword with upturned quillons are called kilidj in her book. I think Astvatsaturian is a great author, but we should be careful before we treat published works as Gospel. Another Russian author, Kulinskiy, refers to almost every German bayonet as a hirschfanger, and we know that in german the word was used to describe a completely different weapon, which he calls "hunting dagger" ("кортик"). Personally, I prefer to use weapon names as they were used by their original users, and from what I have read, the word pala was used in the Balkans to refer to a sword, much like the one in the opening post. Regards, Teodor

5th February 2009, 04:22 PM	#5
ingvar Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 11	then, i suppose we've met an ancient "Saber vs Sabre" type of problem