Victorian Wall Decoration?

Atlantia · 30th January 2009, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

Hi Gene, thank you for your advice on the cleaning of this piece. You can rest assured that I would NEVER under any circumstances use any motorized tool in the cleaning of any of my pieces.

To answer your question, yes the tang can be seen where the hilt is cracked.
After thinking about it I have decided to leave the hilt wrapping as is. I don't think that it could be done properly with out removing the fittings which would require grinding the riveted end of the tang to remove of the pommel. I will try to clean the remaining paint and some of the rust from the joints and crevasses of the hilt. Thank you again for all your help.

Robert

You are more than welcome Robert.
Does the glimpse of tang give any more clues?

Robert · 30th January 2009, 07:46 PM

Unfortunately no, only about 2 inches of the tang can be seen in the split. It is well patinated (rusted

) but I can see no forging seam from being extended. Not sure if that is good or bad.

Robert

Atlantia · 30th January 2009, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

Unfortunately no, only about 2 inches of the tang can be seen in the split. It is well patinated (rusted

) but I can see no forging seam from being extended. Not sure if that is good or bad.

Robert

Well its better than seeing a big weld

I think its a great piece! Please post more pictures if you do any cleaning or work on it.

All the Best
Gene

Robert · 30th January 2009, 09:48 PM

Gene, I would like to thank you, Kisak and Celtan once again for all of your help and time with this sword. With quite a bit of winter left ahead and to help keep myself from getting a bad case of cabin fever I will probably do a little more cleaning on this and try to remove the last of the paint and a little more of the rust from the hilt. I'll also clean the blade a little better while I'm at it. When done I will be more than happy to post more pictures.

With My Best Regards
Robert

Jim McDougall · 31st January 2009, 06:30 PM

I have been glancing at this thread occasionally and noting the outstanding observations and assessments on this very attractive and interesting piece. I agree that there is a wonderful warmth to a good story that often accompanies items that are passed on through families in estates and as heirlooms. In many cases, however, the stories have been misconstrued or embellished, which sometimes disappointing, though I personally consider all aspects part of the story, from the original version to the revised.

The idea of this piece being from the Philippines does not seem likely, though it would be wonderful to think of it as a Spanish colonial rapier carried by a Spanish officer there. I would think this piece was likely comingled with what sounds like a number of weapons, some of which were no doubt examples which may have been obtained there. Perhaps the 'wavy' bladed one was a Moro kris. It is quite common to have this occur, even in museums, as sometimes the groupings contain incongruent items and are all assumed from the same location.

I think the assessment of this blade being probably 18th century military is, as shown, correct, and though I do not think this fabrication is the work of Ernst Schmidt's atelier, I do agree it is likely the work of one of his contemporaries to represent an early rapier. It is a charming piece, and the hilt shows considerable skill in ironwork, and though not an authentic early example, has become a distinct antique in its own right, much as Schmidts work has.

Often when I see swords that are reconstructions of the period this piece, and of earlier periods recalling the colorful and chivalrous times of the past, I think of swords that often found use in Masonic lodges as Tylers swords.While it is well known that there were companies that produced regalia swords for the membership and officers, the sword used by the Tyler was profoundly considered more revered in its station. For this reason, I believe that many composite and skillfully fashioned examples became used in this capacity. In earlier research that concerned Masonic symbolism, I have come across numbers of instances of various swords with many degrees of fascinating history in thier eventual arrival in thier use by Tyler's.
While obviously I cannot say that is the case with this sword, it does seem worthy of note for consideration.

All best regards,
Jim

Robert · 1st February 2009, 05:25 AM

[QUOTE=Jim McDougall]
I would think this piece was likely comingled with what sounds like a number of weapons, some of which were no doubt examples which may have been obtained there. Perhaps the 'wavy' bladed one was a Moro kris.

Hello Jim,
I cannot thank you enough for joining in on this discussion. At one time in this post I said "Who doesn't like a good story?". The main reason that I left out the following is the fact that it sounds to much like someone grasping at straws trying to make a point. The woman I bought this from did have and did show me an early photograph of her Uncle in uniform with his "war booty" that did show this sword and what looked to be a very nice kris, a couple of bolo's and a talibon as well as other pieces quite clearly. Now as to the age of the photograph I cannot with all honesty say how old it was but it did in my eyes look to be turn of the century or there about. As like other excuses that I'm sure you've already heard she flatly refused to let me have the photo long enough to have it copied no matter what I offered her. She seemed more concerned about the value of the picture than that of the sword which I paid a grand total of $15.00 for, and offered up to $25.00 for the picture itself. I have not mentioned this before because of how how stupid and ridiculous it sounds to me and I'm sure to anyone else when put in printed form. I'm not saying this to try to prove that this sword is from the Philippines because it has already been shown in this thread that this is not the case, but only to try to show how convincing the story was for me to believe. My only question to you is this, do you think that there is no chance that this piece was made to be used as an authentic weapon and was not just made to decorate a wall ?

Robert

Jim McDougall · 1st February 2009, 06:20 AM

Hi Robert,
I think you did fantastic getting this piece for 15 bucks!! It really is an intriguing piece, and it is reflective of some pretty good ironwork. I cannot imagine any way this sword would have been in the Philippines, though it does seem that the Spanish American War period might be right for its fashioning and assembly. Something that has come to mind is the amazing war surplus world of the Bannerman Company of New York, who were in business from just after the Civil War up to the 1960's, purveyors of all manner of surplus and war relics. One of thier greatest booms was just after the Spanish American War, when they obtained tons of material from both sides. It is nearly unfathomable how many 'bring backs' made the pages of these catalogs, and still circulate as war souveniers. Many veterans even saw items they had seen on campaign and regretted not having 'brought one home' , and now had a second chance to obtain them as examples of the weapons used by the'enemy'. Whether they intended to pass them off as actual souveniers or not is anyones guess as often it was just assumed as they were handed down.

I dont think this in any way discredits the items themselves, they were in most cases brought back by somebody, unless part of the stockpiles obtained in the Bannerman conquest. Bannerman also took in just about anything remotely associated with militaria, including fabricated pieces, regalia items, stage props etc.
While I do not believe this sword was put together in any way for combat, as rapiers were history nearly 200 years before this was made, I do believe it was intently constructed, whether for use on stage or possibly even as I suggested, as a Tylers sword, rather than a wall decoration.

The blade, as we have agreed, certainly had a history of its own, in an undetermined European military sword. Perhaps, that blade had its own story to tell, before the plot thickened and it was given a new life.

All best regards,
Jim

30th January 2009, 07:46 PM	#2
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Unfortunately no, only about 2 inches of the tang can be seen in the split. It is well patinated (rusted ) but I can see no forging seam from being extended. Not sure if that is good or bad. Robert

30th January 2009, 09:48 PM	#4
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Gene, I would like to thank you, Kisak and Celtan once again for all of your help and time with this sword. With quite a bit of winter left ahead and to help keep myself from getting a bad case of cabin fever I will probably do a little more cleaning on this and try to remove the last of the paint and a little more of the rust from the hilt. I'll also clean the blade a little better while I'm at it. When done I will be more than happy to post more pictures. With My Best Regards Robert

31st January 2009, 06:30 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,200	I have been glancing at this thread occasionally and noting the outstanding observations and assessments on this very attractive and interesting piece. I agree that there is a wonderful warmth to a good story that often accompanies items that are passed on through families in estates and as heirlooms. In many cases, however, the stories have been misconstrued or embellished, which sometimes disappointing, though I personally consider all aspects part of the story, from the original version to the revised. The idea of this piece being from the Philippines does not seem likely, though it would be wonderful to think of it as a Spanish colonial rapier carried by a Spanish officer there. I would think this piece was likely comingled with what sounds like a number of weapons, some of which were no doubt examples which may have been obtained there. Perhaps the 'wavy' bladed one was a Moro kris. It is quite common to have this occur, even in museums, as sometimes the groupings contain incongruent items and are all assumed from the same location. I think the assessment of this blade being probably 18th century military is, as shown, correct, and though I do not think this fabrication is the work of Ernst Schmidt's atelier, I do agree it is likely the work of one of his contemporaries to represent an early rapier. It is a charming piece, and the hilt shows considerable skill in ironwork, and though not an authentic early example, has become a distinct antique in its own right, much as Schmidts work has. Often when I see swords that are reconstructions of the period this piece, and of earlier periods recalling the colorful and chivalrous times of the past, I think of swords that often found use in Masonic lodges as Tylers swords.While it is well known that there were companies that produced regalia swords for the membership and officers, the sword used by the Tyler was profoundly considered more revered in its station. For this reason, I believe that many composite and skillfully fashioned examples became used in this capacity. In earlier research that concerned Masonic symbolism, I have come across numbers of instances of various swords with many degrees of fascinating history in thier eventual arrival in thier use by Tyler's. While obviously I cannot say that is the case with this sword, it does seem worthy of note for consideration. All best regards, Jim

1st February 2009, 05:25 AM	#6
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	[QUOTE=Jim McDougall] I would think this piece was likely comingled with what sounds like a number of weapons, some of which were no doubt examples which may have been obtained there. Perhaps the 'wavy' bladed one was a Moro kris. Hello Jim, I cannot thank you enough for joining in on this discussion. At one time in this post I said "Who doesn't like a good story?". The main reason that I left out the following is the fact that it sounds to much like someone grasping at straws trying to make a point. The woman I bought this from did have and did show me an early photograph of her Uncle in uniform with his "war booty" that did show this sword and what looked to be a very nice kris, a couple of bolo's and a talibon as well as other pieces quite clearly. Now as to the age of the photograph I cannot with all honesty say how old it was but it did in my eyes look to be turn of the century or there about. As like other excuses that I'm sure you've already heard she flatly refused to let me have the photo long enough to have it copied no matter what I offered her. She seemed more concerned about the value of the picture than that of the sword which I paid a grand total of $15.00 for, and offered up to $25.00 for the picture itself. I have not mentioned this before because of how how stupid and ridiculous it sounds to me and I'm sure to anyone else when put in printed form. I'm not saying this to try to prove that this sword is from the Philippines because it has already been shown in this thread that this is not the case, but only to try to show how convincing the story was for me to believe. My only question to you is this, do you think that there is no chance that this piece was made to be used as an authentic weapon and was not just made to decorate a wall ? Robert

1st February 2009, 06:20 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,200	Hi Robert, I think you did fantastic getting this piece for 15 bucks!! It really is an intriguing piece, and it is reflective of some pretty good ironwork. I cannot imagine any way this sword would have been in the Philippines, though it does seem that the Spanish American War period might be right for its fashioning and assembly. Something that has come to mind is the amazing war surplus world of the Bannerman Company of New York, who were in business from just after the Civil War up to the 1960's, purveyors of all manner of surplus and war relics. One of thier greatest booms was just after the Spanish American War, when they obtained tons of material from both sides. It is nearly unfathomable how many 'bring backs' made the pages of these catalogs, and still circulate as war souveniers. Many veterans even saw items they had seen on campaign and regretted not having 'brought one home' , and now had a second chance to obtain them as examples of the weapons used by the'enemy'. Whether they intended to pass them off as actual souveniers or not is anyones guess as often it was just assumed as they were handed down. I dont think this in any way discredits the items themselves, they were in most cases brought back by somebody, unless part of the stockpiles obtained in the Bannerman conquest. Bannerman also took in just about anything remotely associated with militaria, including fabricated pieces, regalia items, stage props etc. While I do not believe this sword was put together in any way for combat, as rapiers were history nearly 200 years before this was made, I do believe it was intently constructed, whether for use on stage or possibly even as I suggested, as a Tylers sword, rather than a wall decoration. The blade, as we have agreed, certainly had a history of its own, in an undetermined European military sword. Perhaps, that blade had its own story to tell, before the plot thickened and it was given a new life. All best regards, Jim