Borneo Piso

Tim Simmons · 29th January 2009, 08:38 PM

Something from the Borneo wars. British soldiers in remote parts of Sabah and Sarawak. Tribesmen putting modern things to use? Lets look at this agian when does this form of hilt appear? I cannot see the handle as bad work. Is it possible as suggested before that as time moves on forms do change. Does that mean they are fake?

Tim Simmons · 29th January 2009, 09:04 PM

http://www.nmbva.co.uk/

asomotif · 29th January 2009, 09:17 PM

Hello Tim,

I did not really look into this thread before.
To be honest because at first impression the piece does look like something put together for the tourists.

The blade and scabbard appear to be matching, but they must be something from Java IMHO.might well be early 20th century.

The handle as Arjan already mentioned is carved pretty rough and not very traditional. sometimes you see mandaus with hilts that have more or less this style. It is not what most collectors are looking for in a mandau hilt.
But as times change also designs on Borneo change.
So it can be a mandau handle maybe from the 70'.

Than there is the red wrapping around the hilt.
Is it some kind of ray skin ? or is it plastic imitation ray skin ?
This is something that I would certainly place outside of Borneo.

Than you mention that the hilt was fixed with melted plastic.
if it was put together on Borneo I think they would have used resin / damar as this is the traditional way of fixing hilts on Borneo.

All together, my opinion is also that the piece was put together.
Where, I do not know. But not by someone with Dayak background.

Best regards,
Willem

Tim Simmons · 29th January 2009, 09:23 PM

It is real ray or shark skin I have no idea if it is dyed but i do know the are some colourful sharks and rays? In many ways melting a plastic trade bucket or bowl is a lot easier than the traditional resin route as I have tried myself? Instant glue and cheap? I accept it is a trade blade, what is odd about that?

Tim Simmons · 29th January 2009, 09:30 PM

Do we know all the colours of Shark and Ray skins? The small eyed ray seems to fit the colour rather well.
http://www.wildlifeonline.me.uk/sharks_rays.html#colour

Tim Simmons · 29th January 2009, 09:38 PM

Pink whip ray from Malaysian waters.
http://www.fish.gov.au/fishnames/photos/37035003.jpg

VANDOO · 29th January 2009, 11:06 PM

NORMALY CURED OR TANNED RAY SKIN LOOKS WHITE AS IT IS MADE UP OF LARGE DENTICLES (BONE) WITH SKIN BEHIND AND BETWEEN THEM YOU HAVE PROBABLY SEEN THE RAYSKIN ON SAMAURAI SWORDS AND SUCH. THEY USED TO BLEACH IT TO BE EVEN WHITER THAN THE NATURALLY TANNED AND DRIED SKINS FOR THOSE HANDLE GRIPS AS WHITE WAS PREFERRED. I AM NOT SURE WHAT SPECIES OF RAY IS USED AS MOST DO NOT HAVE THE SKIN WITH THE BIG DENTICLES THAT IS PREFERRED FOR USE AS RAYSKIN ON SWORD GRIPS, ECT. I HAVE PERSONALLY SKINED STINGRAYS AND SKATES AND SHARKS BUT NONE OF THE SPECIES I WORKED ON WAS THE ONE USED TO MAKE THIS RAYSKIN.
IN BALI I VISITED SEVERAL SHOPS SELLING LEATHER GOODS MADE FROM RAYSKIN THERE WAS A WIDE SELECTION OF COLORS AVAILABLE BLUE, PURPLE, RED, GREEN, WHITE BUT I PERSONALLY PREFERRED THE BLACK OR TAN-BROWN COLOR MOST. THEY ALSO DYE SNAKESKINS AND SEA SNAKE SKIN WAS VERY POPULAR IN JAPAN A FEW YEARS BACK AND PROBABLY STILL IS. SO I SERIOUSLY DOUBT THE RED RAYSKIN IS A NATURAL COLOR.

Tim Simmons · 30th January 2009, 10:38 AM

So its still crap then! I lost a lot on it

VANDOO · 29th January 2009, 09:21 PM

OBSERVATIONS. THE SECTION OF ANTLER USED TO CARVE THE HANDLE WAS NOT THE PRIME PIECE WHICH IS USUALLY USED FOR DAYAK HANDLES. IT APPEARS TO BE FROM A SMALLER ANTLER PERHAPS A SPIKE SO THE LARGE FORK THAT IS USUALLY USED WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN PRESENT ON THAT ANTLER SO THE BUTTON AND FIRST SMALL SPIKE WAS SELECTED FOR CARVING. THAT WOULD LIMIT WHAT COULD BE CARVED AND WOULD DETERMINE THE FINAL SHAPE THESE FACTS DON'T NECESSARILY POINT TO MODIFICATION OR FAKERY AS A SMALLER ANTLER WOULD BE USED IF BETTER ONES WERE NOT AVAILABLE OR THE BUYER WHO WANTED A HANDLE CARVED WAS LOW ON CASH.

THE BLADE IS DEFINITELY NOT ONE MANUFACTURED BY DAYAK AND WOULD NOT BE THE PREFERRED FORM OR STYLE USED BY THEM.
THE RED FLAG I SEE THAT MAKES ME AGREE THAT THIS MAY HAVE COME TOGETHER IN BALI IS THE USE OF DYED RAYSKIN THERE IS AN INDUSTRY OF THAT IN BALI AND QUITE A LOT OF WEAPONS ARE EITHER MADE OR FIND THEIR WAY TO BALI'S SHOPS. THE CARVERS COULD EASILY HAVE CARVED THE HANDLE AND IF THE PIECE OF ANTLER THAT IS STILL ROUGH IS SEPARATE FROM THE CARVED POMMEL OR IS PART OF THE SAME ANTLER BUT LEFT ROUGH THAT WOULD NOT BE A DAYAK CARVING TECKNIQUE OR AT LEAST I HAVE NEVER SEEN IT BEFORE.
THIS DISCUSSION IS PRODUCTIVE IN THAT WE ALL WILL BE MORE ON GAURD AND AWARE SO WILL LOOK MUCH CLOSER AT SUCH ITEMS. STILL IT IS A NICE LOOKING ITEM AND WHO KNOWS SOME LOCAL IN SARAWAK/KUCHING MAY HAVE COBBLED IT TOGETHER BUT THE ODDS SEEM TO BE AGAINST IT UNLESS THEY IMPORTED SOME RAYSKIN FROM BALI.

29th January 2009, 09:38 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,890	Pink whip ray from Malaysian waters. http://www.fish.gov.au/fishnames/photos/37035003.jpg Last edited by Tim Simmons; 29th January 2009 at 09:47 PM. Reason: spelling

29th January 2009, 08:38 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,890	Something from the Borneo wars. British soldiers in remote parts of Sabah and Sarawak. Tribesmen putting modern things to use? Lets look at this agian when does this form of hilt appear? I cannot see the handle as bad work. Is it possible as suggested before that as time moves on forms do change. Does that mean they are fake?

29th January 2009, 09:04 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,890	http://www.nmbva.co.uk/

29th January 2009, 09:17 PM	#3
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,235	Hello Tim, I did not really look into this thread before. To be honest because at first impression the piece does look like something put together for the tourists. The blade and scabbard appear to be matching, but they must be something from Java IMHO.might well be early 20th century. The handle as Arjan already mentioned is carved pretty rough and not very traditional. sometimes you see mandaus with hilts that have more or less this style. It is not what most collectors are looking for in a mandau hilt. But as times change also designs on Borneo change. So it can be a mandau handle maybe from the 70'. Than there is the red wrapping around the hilt. Is it some kind of ray skin ? or is it plastic imitation ray skin ? This is something that I would certainly place outside of Borneo. Than you mention that the hilt was fixed with melted plastic. if it was put together on Borneo I think they would have used resin / damar as this is the traditional way of fixing hilts on Borneo. All together, my opinion is also that the piece was put together. Where, I do not know. But not by someone with Dayak background. Best regards, Willem

29th January 2009, 09:23 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,890	It is real ray or shark skin I have no idea if it is dyed but i do know the are some colourful sharks and rays? In many ways melting a plastic trade bucket or bowl is a lot easier than the traditional resin route as I have tried myself? Instant glue and cheap? I accept it is a trade blade, what is odd about that?

29th January 2009, 09:30 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,890	Do we know all the colours of Shark and Ray skins? The small eyed ray seems to fit the colour rather well. http://www.wildlifeonline.me.uk/sharks_rays.html#colour

29th January 2009, 11:06 PM	#7
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	NORMALY CURED OR TANNED RAY SKIN LOOKS WHITE AS IT IS MADE UP OF LARGE DENTICLES (BONE) WITH SKIN BEHIND AND BETWEEN THEM YOU HAVE PROBABLY SEEN THE RAYSKIN ON SAMAURAI SWORDS AND SUCH. THEY USED TO BLEACH IT TO BE EVEN WHITER THAN THE NATURALLY TANNED AND DRIED SKINS FOR THOSE HANDLE GRIPS AS WHITE WAS PREFERRED. I AM NOT SURE WHAT SPECIES OF RAY IS USED AS MOST DO NOT HAVE THE SKIN WITH THE BIG DENTICLES THAT IS PREFERRED FOR USE AS RAYSKIN ON SWORD GRIPS, ECT. I HAVE PERSONALLY SKINED STINGRAYS AND SKATES AND SHARKS BUT NONE OF THE SPECIES I WORKED ON WAS THE ONE USED TO MAKE THIS RAYSKIN. IN BALI I VISITED SEVERAL SHOPS SELLING LEATHER GOODS MADE FROM RAYSKIN THERE WAS A WIDE SELECTION OF COLORS AVAILABLE BLUE, PURPLE, RED, GREEN, WHITE BUT I PERSONALLY PREFERRED THE BLACK OR TAN-BROWN COLOR MOST. THEY ALSO DYE SNAKESKINS AND SEA SNAKE SKIN WAS VERY POPULAR IN JAPAN A FEW YEARS BACK AND PROBABLY STILL IS. SO I SERIOUSLY DOUBT THE RED RAYSKIN IS A NATURAL COLOR.

30th January 2009, 10:38 AM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,890	So its still crap then! I lost a lot on it

29th January 2009, 09:21 PM	#9
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	OBSERVATIONS. THE SECTION OF ANTLER USED TO CARVE THE HANDLE WAS NOT THE PRIME PIECE WHICH IS USUALLY USED FOR DAYAK HANDLES. IT APPEARS TO BE FROM A SMALLER ANTLER PERHAPS A SPIKE SO THE LARGE FORK THAT IS USUALLY USED WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN PRESENT ON THAT ANTLER SO THE BUTTON AND FIRST SMALL SPIKE WAS SELECTED FOR CARVING. THAT WOULD LIMIT WHAT COULD BE CARVED AND WOULD DETERMINE THE FINAL SHAPE THESE FACTS DON'T NECESSARILY POINT TO MODIFICATION OR FAKERY AS A SMALLER ANTLER WOULD BE USED IF BETTER ONES WERE NOT AVAILABLE OR THE BUYER WHO WANTED A HANDLE CARVED WAS LOW ON CASH. THE BLADE IS DEFINITELY NOT ONE MANUFACTURED BY DAYAK AND WOULD NOT BE THE PREFERRED FORM OR STYLE USED BY THEM. THE RED FLAG I SEE THAT MAKES ME AGREE THAT THIS MAY HAVE COME TOGETHER IN BALI IS THE USE OF DYED RAYSKIN THERE IS AN INDUSTRY OF THAT IN BALI AND QUITE A LOT OF WEAPONS ARE EITHER MADE OR FIND THEIR WAY TO BALI'S SHOPS. THE CARVERS COULD EASILY HAVE CARVED THE HANDLE AND IF THE PIECE OF ANTLER THAT IS STILL ROUGH IS SEPARATE FROM THE CARVED POMMEL OR IS PART OF THE SAME ANTLER BUT LEFT ROUGH THAT WOULD NOT BE A DAYAK CARVING TECKNIQUE OR AT LEAST I HAVE NEVER SEEN IT BEFORE. THIS DISCUSSION IS PRODUCTIVE IN THAT WE ALL WILL BE MORE ON GAURD AND AWARE SO WILL LOOK MUCH CLOSER AT SUCH ITEMS. STILL IT IS A NICE LOOKING ITEM AND WHO KNOWS SOME LOCAL IN SARAWAK/KUCHING MAY HAVE COBBLED IT TOGETHER BUT THE ODDS SEEM TO BE AGAINST IT UNLESS THEY IMPORTED SOME RAYSKIN FROM BALI.