Re: The oldest known handgun in existence, ca. 1400-10

fernando · 29th January 2009, 02:43 PM

Spiridonov, are you still around ?

Fernando

Matchlock · 29th January 2009, 05:17 PM

Thank you, Fernando and Richard,

Well, I guess that Spiridonow obviously has taken his time studying profoundly what I posted in November and consequently drawn his expert conclusions. After all, he may have a far better collection than I, more books and may have been to more museums than I have. Who knows?

We should not worry too much, though, my friends - to each his own ...

Michael

Matchlock · 21st February 2009, 06:52 PM

A similar tiller gun preserved at the Springfield Armory - wooden staff replaced, no mechanism.

Sadly no better photo available.

MIchael

Matchlock · 21st February 2009, 07:28 PM

The description of the Springfield Armory piece.

Matchlock · 25th February 2009, 08:38 PM

The so called Berne gun, preserved at the Historic Museum Berne, Switzerland; sadly not seen on display for decades like almost all their weapons.

The oak stock is the original one while the hook nailed thru the stock seems to be a working addition of ca. 1430-40 when the first hooks turned up.

The stats are:
oa. length 95.2 cm, oa. weight 4.15 kg, barrel length 18.5 cm, octagonal throughout, length of bore 15.0 cm, outer muzzle diameter 5.6 cm, bore 3.5 cm.

A very similar wrought iron barrel, ca. 1380-1400, and retaining one of its originally two iron stock bands, is in my collection (attchaments below). Its eight sides alternate in width which, according to my experience, is characteristic of almost all of the earliest octagonal barrels. Like on the Berne gun, the touch hole is some 3 cm forward of the rear end. Unlike the Berne gun, the bore of my item has been drilled out within its working life. You can see the drill marks on the inner wall of the barrel, as well the place on the bottom which the point of the drill left. This accounts for its present cylindrical bore which most probably was of conical shape originally.

Michael

Matchlock · 27th March 2009, 06:40 PM

Please go to

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7076

Michael

cornelistromp · 3rd April 2009, 08:22 AM

Hi Michael,

found yesterday in the real armeria in Madrid two early examples.
Dated 1450 but both can be a bit earlier.

sorry, I could not make better pictures with my mobil phone

best regards

Spiridonov · 5th November 2010, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

You can see the drill marks on the inner wall of the barrel, as well the place on the bottom which the point of the drill left.

Michael, Hallo! Do you really think that it was drilled at the 1380-1400 yaer?

Matchlock · 5th November 2010, 03:56 PM

Hello Alexender,

No, there definitely was no drilling of barrels before ca. 1430, a time when they were mounted first with hooks, but not yet wrought integrally.

As I wrote, I surmised that both the Berne gun and my barrel were drilled out somewhen in their later working life, which may have been during the 15th century.

As you know I have a Nuremberg wrought iron haquebut barrel which cannot have been made before ca. 1490/1500 but the inner surface of which has never been drilled! Not only is it of totally irregular 'bore'

at the muzzle but one can look inside and see heavy distortions going on down to the rear! The only ammunition it could have possibly fired would be some kind of shot ... I am sure you recall seeing it in my collection when you were here in August.

Attached please find images. It is the second last in the first pic and the one on the right in the row of muzzles.

Best,
Michael

21st February 2009, 06:52 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	A similar tiller gun preserved at the Springfield Armory - wooden staff replaced, no mechanism. Sadly no better photo available. MIchael Attached Images

21st February 2009, 07:28 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	The description of the Springfield Armory piece. Attached Images

25th February 2009, 08:38 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	One of the Oldest Known Stocked Guns, ca. 1400-1440 The so called Berne gun, preserved at the Historic Museum Berne, Switzerland; sadly not seen on display for decades like almost all their weapons. The oak stock is the original one while the hook nailed thru the stock seems to be a working addition of ca. 1430-40 when the first hooks turned up. The stats are: oa. length 95.2 cm, oa. weight 4.15 kg, barrel length 18.5 cm, octagonal throughout, length of bore 15.0 cm, outer muzzle diameter 5.6 cm, bore 3.5 cm. A very similar wrought iron barrel, ca. 1380-1400, and retaining one of its originally two iron stock bands, is in my collection (attchaments below). Its eight sides alternate in width which, according to my experience, is characteristic of almost all of the earliest octagonal barrels. Like on the Berne gun, the touch hole is some 3 cm forward of the rear end. Unlike the Berne gun, the bore of my item has been drilled out within its working life. You can see the drill marks on the inner wall of the barrel, as well the place on the bottom which the point of the drill left. This accounts for its present cylindrical bore which most probably was of conical shape originally. Michael Attached Images

27th March 2009, 06:40 PM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	See more! Please go to http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7076 Michael

3rd April 2009, 08:22 AM	#7
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,063	Hi Michael, found yesterday in the real armeria in Madrid two early examples. Dated 1450 but both can be a bit earlier. sorry, I could not make better pictures with my mobil phone best regards Attached Images

29th January 2009, 02:43 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Spiridonov, are you still around ? Fernando

29th January 2009, 05:17 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Thank you, Fernando and Richard, Well, I guess that Spiridonow obviously has taken his time studying profoundly what I posted in November and consequently drawn his expert conclusions. After all, he may have a far better collection than I, more books and may have been to more museums than I have. Who knows? We should not worry too much, though, my friends - to each his own ... Michael

5th November 2010, 03:56 PM	#9
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hello Alexender, No, there definitely was no drilling of barrels before ca. 1430, a time when they were mounted first with hooks, but not yet wrought integrally. As I wrote, I surmised that both the Berne gun and my barrel were drilled out somewhen in their later working life, which may have been during the 15th century. As you know I have a Nuremberg wrought iron haquebut barrel which cannot have been made before ca. 1490/1500 but the inner surface of which has never been drilled! Not only is it of totally irregular 'bore' at the muzzle but one can look inside and see heavy distortions going on down to the rear! The only ammunition it could have possibly fired would be some kind of shot ... I am sure you recall seeing it in my collection when you were here in August. Attached please find images. It is the second last in the first pic and the one on the right in the row of muzzles. Best, Michael Attached Images