What sort of steel is this please? (Indian blade)

Atlantia · 29th January 2009, 12:55 PM

HI Phillip,

Thanks for coming in on this.
I had a quick look for 'sham wootz' online last night and noticed some similar discussions about if 'sham' should really even be described as wootz, is that what we're seeing here, or do you think this shouldn't be categorised as sham and is 'just' a finely layered/folded steel?

Regards
Gene

ALEX · 29th January 2009, 07:52 PM

I agree with RSWORD. This is typical sham pattern. Some still debate sham's attribution to wootz, but it has not been officially declared as non-wootz. The inferiority of sham comparing to other more prominent patterns is another topic, but generally speaking - sham wootz is still wootz

Philip · 29th January 2009, 07:59 PM

Gene,
Based on everything I've seen of "sham", it' wootz. As you probably well know, the name "sham" in this case is a Near Eastern term, it doesn't mean "false" or "faux" as we would use it in English.

Even if your blade is not wootz, it shouldn't be a cause of disappointment! There's nothing wrong with pattern welding, layering, lamination, and all that; as we all know a number of cultures East and West did some remarkable things with it and the craft is pursued at a high level even today. Wootz is indeed a marvellous thing (when it's done right, and frankly said there's more indifferent to bad stuff out there than there is the really excellent), but we should not elevate it to the status of a sacred cow. Even in this, the Year of the Ox!

Atlantia · 30th January 2009, 06:50 PM

Alex and Philip,

Thankyou for continuing this discussion.

I think I should add a picture of the entire piece, so that you can see why I was suprised to notice the layering.

I've had this knife for a long long time and have only recently 're-found' it.
I asked a question about its identity a while ago and was pleased to find out that these Indian/Nepalese hunting type knives do have a following.
I did not however expect that the balde would be anything other than plain steel.

Imagine my suprise?

Philip.
Absolutely, I'm happy whatever it is. I am just happy its not a land-rover leaf spring!

I am still smiling at the unexpected bonus of having this interesting new aspect to something I'd taken for granted for so many years.

Gene

P.S.some decent daylight here would be nice to get some better pictures!

Bloody overcast days.

Atlantia · 31st January 2009, 09:00 PM

I'm really suprised this hasn't engendered more discussion.

Philip · 31st January 2009, 09:51 PM

I forwarded this discussion page to smith Ric Furrer, who lives in Wisconsin and is one of the few in his trade to have mastered the art of making wootz, and he also thinks tthat this blade is something else. Hopefully he'll be posting on this thread soon with an explanation.

Atlantia · 1st February 2009, 01:03 AM

Making Wootz?
Whoa!
I guess like all of us I've got some very pretty modern 'damascus' pattern welded stuff, I didn't even know that anyone was making new wootz.

Clearly this is an area I need a better understanding of.
When I first noticed some lines in the blade and realised they were not left by shaping polishing etc, I was kinda excited as I thought it might be something interesting, but the results of the lemon were not what I expected at all.

Not to mention baffling!

If we assume its not much older than early 20th, then if it was made in India, I'd have expected just plain steel.
Wouldn't Nepal be more like Tibet if they were going to use a folding technique, wouldn't it look much more obvious like hair-pin?

I'd love to see some examples of this techniqe in other blades to give me more of a 'context' for it, and pin its location too.

I can't help but think (even though I like the dagger) that if its 'sham' then isn't it in the wrong place and isn't it a lot of effort for a knife to sell to some English 'invader'.
Similarly, if its folded/pattern welded then its by far the closest and finest I've seen, not a 'style' I'm familiar with in the context of India/Nepal and why would they bother on a brass mounted knife, again to sell to a foreigner?
Oh, and don't forget, a knife in emulation of the western bowie style?

I am certainly greatful to you guys for helping, and debating its origins!

Philip · 1st February 2009, 02:59 AM

It seems that the "hairpin" folding patterns of Tibet. Bhutan, and parts of the Assam and the Sino-Tibetan borderlands were not, as a rule, carried over into Nepal. I've polished a good number of kukris for collectors of these things. Two of them, in the former John Powell collection, were very spectacular pattern welds; one ( a budhume or broad-bladed type) had the dense distribution of "pools" or "bird eyes" seen also on some Indian talwars, the other one (a narrower-bladed "honshee" with a longish grip) had a striking and highly unusual pattern resembling a forest of fir trees. Both were differentially heat treated, the edge showing up as a broad band of differing color and refractiveness, analogous to a "hamone" on a Japanese blade. Other kooks which I've polished showed evidence of much simpler lamination others were all but homogenous (probably made from railroad steel or carriage springs, per Mr. Powell) but they invariably had the "temper line" at the edges.

The art of forging pattern welded blades, some of pretty high quality, is still alive in India.

29th January 2009, 07:59 PM	#3
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	sham is a type of wootz Gene, Based on everything I've seen of "sham", it' wootz. As you probably well know, the name "sham" in this case is a Near Eastern term, it doesn't mean "false" or "faux" as we would use it in English. Even if your blade is not wootz, it shouldn't be a cause of disappointment! There's nothing wrong with pattern welding, layering, lamination, and all that; as we all know a number of cultures East and West did some remarkable things with it and the craft is pursued at a high level even today. Wootz is indeed a marvellous thing (when it's done right, and frankly said there's more indifferent to bad stuff out there than there is the really excellent), but we should not elevate it to the status of a sacred cow. Even in this, the Year of the Ox!

30th January 2009, 06:50 PM	#4
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Alex and Philip, Thankyou for continuing this discussion. I think I should add a picture of the entire piece, so that you can see why I was suprised to notice the layering. I've had this knife for a long long time and have only recently 're-found' it. I asked a question about its identity a while ago and was pleased to find out that these Indian/Nepalese hunting type knives do have a following. I did not however expect that the balde would be anything other than plain steel. Imagine my suprise? Philip. Absolutely, I'm happy whatever it is. I am just happy its not a land-rover leaf spring! I am still smiling at the unexpected bonus of having this interesting new aspect to something I'd taken for granted for so many years. Gene P.S.some decent daylight here would be nice to get some better pictures! Bloody overcast days. Last edited by Atlantia; 31st January 2009 at 12:56 AM.

29th January 2009, 12:55 PM	#1
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	HI Phillip, Thanks for coming in on this. I had a quick look for 'sham wootz' online last night and noticed some similar discussions about if 'sham' should really even be described as wootz, is that what we're seeing here, or do you think this shouldn't be categorised as sham and is 'just' a finely layered/folded steel? Regards Gene

29th January 2009, 07:52 PM	#2
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	I agree with RSWORD. This is typical sham pattern. Some still debate sham's attribution to wootz, but it has not been officially declared as non-wootz. The inferiority of sham comparing to other more prominent patterns is another topic, but generally speaking - sham wootz is still wootz

31st January 2009, 09:00 PM	#5
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	I'm really suprised this hasn't engendered more discussion.

31st January 2009, 09:51 PM	#6
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	I forwarded this discussion page to smith Ric Furrer, who lives in Wisconsin and is one of the few in his trade to have mastered the art of making wootz, and he also thinks tthat this blade is something else. Hopefully he'll be posting on this thread soon with an explanation.

1st February 2009, 01:03 AM	#7
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Making Wootz? Whoa! I guess like all of us I've got some very pretty modern 'damascus' pattern welded stuff, I didn't even know that anyone was making new wootz. Clearly this is an area I need a better understanding of. When I first noticed some lines in the blade and realised they were not left by shaping polishing etc, I was kinda excited as I thought it might be something interesting, but the results of the lemon were not what I expected at all. Not to mention baffling! If we assume its not much older than early 20th, then if it was made in India, I'd have expected just plain steel. Wouldn't Nepal be more like Tibet if they were going to use a folding technique, wouldn't it look much more obvious like hair-pin? I'd love to see some examples of this techniqe in other blades to give me more of a 'context' for it, and pin its location too. I can't help but think (even though I like the dagger) that if its 'sham' then isn't it in the wrong place and isn't it a lot of effort for a knife to sell to some English 'invader'. Similarly, if its folded/pattern welded then its by far the closest and finest I've seen, not a 'style' I'm familiar with in the context of India/Nepal and why would they bother on a brass mounted knife, again to sell to a foreigner? Oh, and don't forget, a knife in emulation of the western bowie style? I am certainly greatful to you guys for helping, and debating its origins!

1st February 2009, 02:59 AM	#8
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	It seems that the "hairpin" folding patterns of Tibet. Bhutan, and parts of the Assam and the Sino-Tibetan borderlands were not, as a rule, carried over into Nepal. I've polished a good number of kukris for collectors of these things. Two of them, in the former John Powell collection, were very spectacular pattern welds; one ( a budhume or broad-bladed type) had the dense distribution of "pools" or "bird eyes" seen also on some Indian talwars, the other one (a narrower-bladed "honshee" with a longish grip) had a striking and highly unusual pattern resembling a forest of fir trees. Both were differentially heat treated, the edge showing up as a broad band of differing color and refractiveness, analogous to a "hamone" on a Japanese blade. Other kooks which I've polished showed evidence of much simpler lamination others were all but homogenous (probably made from railroad steel or carriage springs, per Mr. Powell) but they invariably had the "temper line" at the edges. The art of forging pattern welded blades, some of pretty high quality, is still alive in India.